.45 round and barrel length

[jay1313g]

I have a 1911 clone with a 3" barrel. (defender size) I've heard that the 3" barrel may not give a hollow point enough velocity to expand on impact. Are there certain hollow point rounds that are more reliable for the 3" barrel. I want to try to stay away from +P because of a.) harder to handle in a defender size, b.) increased wear on the gun, c.) what the lawyers will say at the self defense trial. (I know, at least I'll be alive to hear what they say.)

[Guest sling]

Usually your going to want that extra speed associated with +P ammo. If you dont want to use it because it will "wear out your gun faster" than find a lighter bullet.

I'm not a believer in 3" barrel .45's because of this exact scenario.

[Guest Mugster]

Yeah, a short barrel in a handgun really kills velocity. I try to stay in the 5" range for most calibers, although I do own a snubnose .38, which i load with 158gr lead semi-wadcutters. In a 3" .45, Personally I'd load it with 230gr ball and hope for the best.

If you reload, go with accurate #2 and as much recoil as you can take. You might fool around with 200gr or 185gr ball, but to get the most energy out of it, you'll have to stick with the heavier bullets.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Stick with any of the premium 230gr JHP in .45acp...regardless of barrel length.

You'll probably still get some decent expansion (if not, you're no worse than FMJ), and you'll get acceptable penetration.

I'm partial to: Winchester Ranger, Federal HST and Tactical Bonded, and Speer Gold Dot.

Edited September 21, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Guest bang-flash]

I have always understood its best to use factory ammo in a carry gun. Specific examples and reasoning escape me right now, but best I can remember is it paints a picture of the shooter being on the extremist side of things.

But this is just what I heard and is only my opinion. For the record I only carry factory ball and jhp ammo. Handloads are for practice and comp only for me.

[chipperi]

it's a .45 it is almost a half inch in diameter anyway. It is a large, slow, bone crushing round, that is going to put an attacker firmly on their back with no chance of over penetration. I asked the same question awhile ago and that was pretty much the consensus.

[Guest Mugster]

Stick with any of the premium 230gr JHP in .45acp...regardless of barrel length.

You'll probably still get some decent expansion (if not, you're no worse than FMJ), and you'll get acceptable penetration.

I'm partial to: Winchester Ranger, Federal HST, and Speer Gold Dot.

Thats pretty good advice too, other than the cost. Winchester does sell a white box "personal defense" hp in 230gr at walmart that clocks pretty well.

[molonlabetn]

200gr in one of the premium brands would be a good option... my take on the 185gr and 165gr JHPs in .45acp is that, in those weights, and with the likely penetration & expansion performance you'd get, one would be just as well off with .40s&w in 165gr or 180gr. And you'd have a few more rounds in the mag, to boot. Higher pressure cartridges are more efficient in short barrelled guns, generally (more rapid acceleration). +P is the more obvious solution, but with it your gun becomes less manageable (wear & tear is negligable though, in modern pistols).

[Guest Todd@CIS]

From someone who knows a lot more about Terminal Ballistics than I (Dr. Gary Roberts).

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

.45 ACP:

Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)

Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)

Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)

Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)

Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP

Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)

Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

The 185/200gr rounds were found to be erractic performers (one exception).

In the end, as long as they penetrate at least 12" in calibrated gel, the 185/200gr bullets are better than FMJ.

However, I'll stick with something from the above list.

Edited September 21, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Guest Todd@CIS]

it's a .45...It is a large, slow, bone crushing round, that is going to put an attacker firmly on their back

No.

Newton's Third Law

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Four types of incapacitation...as I see it.

1. Instant Ideal situation. Reliably achieved only by CNS damage.

2. Rapid Good, but not ideal. Typically achieved by blood pressure loss to the point of death or unconsciousness. This can take 10-12 seconds with a fatal wound (they're dead, they just don't know it yet). 10-12 seconds in a lethal force encounter is an eternity.

3. Destructive Trauma Better than nothing. A shot that destroys the functional use of, say, an arm. Better him than you, but a "true believer" will attempt to adapt and overcome and still be a threat to you.

4. Psychological It happens, but cannot be counted on. The subject "chose" to be incapacitated.

People are not impressed with being shot with handguns...even the "bone crushing .45."

I say this based on my personal experience in dealing with many shootings.

The handgun round that has the best chance of achieving incapacitation, in any form, is one that...

A. Penetrates 12-18" in calibrated gel. Not all SD shootings are unobstructed, frontal COM shots. Think glass, forearms, clothing, muscle and fat.

B. And/Or expands to roughly 1.5x the original caliber diameter.

Edited September 21, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[jay1313g]

Thanks for the great info guys!

How much difference would a 4, 4.5, or 5" barrel make in getting a .45 up to speed and making it even more effective? (reliable expansion)

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Couple of things...

1. Bullet behavior after hitting something is voodoo. Even the very best (those I've already mentioned) can fail or do strange things. We had a shooting where a guy got shot in the ass with a 9mm FMJ...a high penetration round. This round was stopped by an ordinary wallet and left him with nothing more than a bruise. Weird.

2. All JHPs have what's known (to me ) as an "operating floor." This floor is the minimum feet-per-second neccessary to begin expansion. The better JHPs have a "lower floor."

Don't get all wrapped up in this. Pick one, make sure it reliably functions in your gun, and work on the #1 thing that matters...shot placement.

Edited September 21, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Guest 2HOW]

Look at Federals EFMJ the design will help any feeding problems in steep ramp pistols and expansion is consistant.

[PaiMei]

From someone who knows a lot more about Terminal Ballistics than I (Dr. Gary Roberts).

I recently tried to throw out some bait to him on the mp-pistol forum to see if he would bite on this very subject and he did...he said...

Ideally, if you want to run 3-4" barrels, I'd consider using a 9 mm or .40 and save the .45 ACP for 4-5" barrels. On the other hand, as long as you recognize the compromise and are willing to take responsibility and suffer any resultant consequences, then feel free to run .45 ACP in sub 4" pistols. The Barnes 185 gr XPB does pretty well at lower velocities.

If your a member there you can find the thread here... http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=14891

The .45acp was originally designed for a 5" inch barrel. The rounds on Docs list were tested using a 4.25" inch barrel. 3" is quite significantly shorter and will result in a much slower velocity coming from an already slow round in nature. For SD I wouldn't bother with 3" in .45acp.

Originally Posted by chipperi

it's a .45...It is a large, slow, bone crushing round, that is going to put an attacker firmly on their back

Originally Posted by Todd@CIS

No.

Newton's Third Law

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

+1...ya...what he said. Pistols are generally poor incapacitaters.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

PaiMei..yep, you're right about tested barrel lengths and I also wouldn't choose a 3" 45acp.

My ammo advice is still the same with a 3" gun though...230gr JHP from the Dr.'s list.

If 185/200 are erractic at 4.25", they will be at 3" too (except for the Barnes 185).

BTW, my issue round is changing this week. We're switching from the Speer 230gr GoldDot to the Federal 230gr+P HST. I'm issued a 4" XD45.

If I had my choice? G19 loaded with Win 124gr+P Ranger-T or Speer 124gr+P GoldDot.

Edited September 22, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Guest bkelm18]

+1 on HST. Those are my carry rounds when available.

[Guest sling]

+1 on HST. Those are my carry rounds when available.

+2 on HST. Federal Tactical Bonded are pretty awesome too.

Key word there... when you can find them

[Guest Todd@CIS]

+2 on HST. Federal Tactical Bonded are pretty awesome too.

Key word there... when you can find them

Yep, we've had two OI shooings with .40/180gr Federal Tactical Bonded...it performed wonderfully.

[John Wall]

Typically, a 3" barrel 45 will work well with the Remington Golden Sabre 185 gr +P.

The 230 gr will not reliably expand from a 3" barrel. You are unlikely to shoot enough of this expensive ammo to cause any excess wear and tear to your gun.

Since you already have the gun, this will work for you. Practice with the little hand cannon, and make sure it will work for you in a pinch.

BTW, the 40 with a 165 gr bullet in a like firearm will give about the same results as your 45.

The smaller auto pistols are more susceptible to stoppages. Make sure yours works, and practice those stoppage reduction drills. Use only the best mags, and keep your gun clean and well serviced.

[Oh Shoot]

Yep, we've had two OI shooings ...

I'll bite..."OI" is LEOspeak for ... ?

- OS

[PaiMei]

I'll bite..."OI" is LEOspeak for ... ?

- OS

I could be wrong....but I think he means "Officer-Involved." Considering A-LOT of agencies are issuing .40. I also doubt a criminal knows to go buy 180g tactical bonded rounds...but then again, I hear they are buying up those new homeboy nyte sytes to go with their essstendas:)

Edited September 23, 2008 by PaiMei

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Sorry, I thought that one was a gimme...Officer Involved.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Tacblack]

I know Got Dot has short barrel ammo. The 45acp is tested out of a 4" barrel says the spec sheet, 230grn.

[Oh Shoot]

Sorry, I thought that one was a gimme...Officer Involved.

Probably is, for somebody hip. (unlike me).

thnx,

- OS