Marswolf

I think you are right Macho. We probably need to begin a as social thing and see where it heads from there. Here's the info on the TFA meeting in Morristown: The March meeting of the Tennessee Firearms Association Lakeway Chapter will be held on Tuesday evening, the 20th of March, 2007 Our guest speaker will be Senior Special Agent John Witsell from the East Tennessee office Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agency and present an overview of ICE’s mission and duties. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ***Our new meeting place is the Shoneys Family Restaurant at 1933 West Andrew Johnson Highway (Hwy 11E), Morristown TN. *** This restaurant is located 1/2 block east of the West Andrew Johnson highway (Hwy 11E) and Morris Blvd intersection, more or less across from the Home Depot. There is a large, highly visible sign in front along with plenty of parking space. A pre-meeting social hour is from 6 PM to 7 PM during which you may want to eat dinner. The meeting will begin promptly at 7 PM and end at 8 PM. Opportunity will be given to ask questions related to the topic. Membership is not required - gun owners, 2nd Amendment supporters, and interested public are urged to attend. For more information contact Bill Kaylor 423 586 9121/email w9dsm@charter.net or Tim Nunan 423-586-8459/email bentcreek@outdrs.net. _________________ Tim Nunan TFA/NRA Lifemember

We've slipped a bit off topic here and that's partly my fault. Jackdog made a comment about wannabees as viewed by his wife (on topic) and it got picked up by other folks (off topic?) and I responded, against my better judgment. So to finish up my comments, yes a lot of us who are combat veterans do think civilians running around trying to act like military, but who don't want to actually be in the military, look pretty silly. We see it as an attempt at reflected and false glory that has not been earned. To paraphrase someone else, it looks stupid to us. It appears to be a desire for the respect due those who do actually serve by putting their life at risk without the actual sacrifice. There is a military joke that there is a name for civilian survivalists training for military assault --- supply depots. Call it a prejudice. That's it. I'll shut up about that now. I know a lot of women who carry. If they want training, they want to know how to shoot a home intruder or protect themselves in a parking lot or jogging in a park. As others have suggested, I think they are more receptive to women teachers.

Gee, where to begin. The "best training" is in the military for this sort of thing. Our guys are actually living (and unfortunately sometimes dieing) with the training they receive. I promise you the people doing the training are deadly serious about getting it right because the people they are training will likely get to use those skills. I don't know where you expect to use these training skills. Regardless of silly SHTF scenarios, it is highly unlikely that training as you describe will ever be used here except by people in professional positions; and top people in those positions are normally trained by the military and then transition into civilian positions. They are combat proven. If you just want the training for fun, then more power to you, but don't imagine that you are learning a skill at the level of those who practice for weeks, months or years for a combat event which is actually likely to happen to them. And the citizen soldiers of today are in the Guard. Rightly or wrongly, farmer citizens do not have access to the equipment it takes to train for a modern war. I or my ancestors have fought in every war in US history except Korea. But we all did it in uniform.

I'd give them some slack too. At least they did something rather than rationalize why they shouldn't act. I had a friend in Columbus, Georgia who stopped at a traffic light. Guy came out of his girlfriend's apartment, where he had just killed her and opened up on people in cars. Killed my friend. I wish someone had been there to take out the shooter.

I suggest your Army or Marine recruiter.

Always a judgment call.

Should have mentioned that 45 ACP also has its uses right now when our guys are getting attacks from enemy on Qat and other drugs.

......

Well, you and I know that from years of experience. I have a friend who teaches an occasional session at Blackwater when he gets a break from his LE job in North Carolina. He pretty much echoes what you are saying. He tells me they get people all the time who have been to some lousy training school and think they are Rambo when they are closer to being Dumbo. They have to un-train them from invincible mode before re-training. He has mentioned a couple of places you have likely heard of and one very well known guy in particular who plays the suckers for all they are worth. He builds ego and confidence more than real skills. And he gladly takes your money for doing that. Lots of flash and glitter and questionable substance for real-world encounters. He told me that people looking into taking a class anywhere should really check out both the school and individual instructors who teaches the courses. Google searches are helpful if you understand that you always get a lot of people who take the class and go on about how wonderful some school or teacher is. They probably don't have a clue. You have to look for reviews from people who have some expertise and can give an objective appraisal. If you do a search and start coming up with a bunch of negative stuff, it's probably not professional jealousy that caused the nasty posts. If possible, call local law enforcement and see if they will tell you anything. If you get stonewalled or very little comment, it's not a good sign. If they are a great school, most of the time the cops will tell you. If they say nothing, find another place to train. As in everything else these days, you really need to check people out before sending them money.

I basically use three calibers. 40 S&W is a good urban round for open carry. A good compromise on power and velocity without over-penetrating. 9mm gets the nod for IWB urban use as well as field use in non-urban settings. HP for urban, FMJ for field. Better than the 40 for distant shots and it has always been accurate for me. The gun changes from the P7M8 to the Beretta 92SB depending on use, but the caliber is probably the most versatile around. 380 Auto for BUG and casual carry. A reasonable compromise of power for pistol size IMHO. Never cared for the 45 ACP. But I'd go that way if I expected short range commies coming over the berm stuff. It was a great round for WWI.

I'm actually in better condition than a couple of years ago. I never got "fat" but have had a bit of a shift of my chest to my stomach area. Getting older sucks. As you say molonlabetn, stress helps me keep my boyish physique.

I've mentioned Bill Jordan before and his book No Second Place Winner. He goes into the argument about cross-draw and explains why it's a bad idea. For one thing, it makes it easier for bad guys to grab your handgun. Only cross-draw I use is a vertical shoulder holster.

I know it sounds funky, but Thunderwear actually works pretty well for some situations. If you need to be some place without a shirt or something, it does work. I only would use it for a small pistol that you KNOW isn't going to go off inadvertently, but I know people who pack some larger handguns there. I hear it can impress the girls at the Burger King drive through!

Bianchi makes some quality stuff - but you pay for it. In all honesty, I think they are overpriced. I use one of their magazine carriers for the P7M8. I think it cost more than my Don Hume gun holster for the weapon itself. Both seem to hold up equally well.

You know, some years ago the ACLU actually did sometimes support civil liberty. They defended stuff like carrying the Confederate flag and gun rights. Unfortunately these days they are a bit selective about whose rights they will support. It has to fit their agenda. The essence of civil liberty is that unpopular ideas must be allowed to be heard and lived if it doesn't physically harm someone else.

My wife is a shooter, as well as having a four year LE related degree. She shot on a high school rifle team way back when. She is often the one who suggests going to the range. But when we get there, she sometimes sees guys trying to act like Cowboy Joe with quick draws and stuff. She thinks it looks stupid. About 90% of the time I agree with her. Some pot-bellied smart-ass trying to look like he's important and competent just looks like a fool. Often you just know that they are technically proficient, but couldn't hack it in a real fight. It's just a look they have. The people who get the respect are the young military people who already know why they are practicing and the old serious guys who are realistic about their limitations and go for accuracy and what they know is important, skipping the flash. You might get my wife to a class, but it would have to be someone she has talked to teaching it. If he is some fat guy boasting about how great he is, she wouldn't go anywhere around him. Then again, neither would I. One of the local clubs has frequent women's weekends. Most of the time they use woman instructors and the classes are just for women. No guys "showing" them how to do things. It's been pretty popular.

The motto can be, "Plug the gap - Plug the perp!"

Your carry strategy is to look like someone light in the loafers? It looks to me like by the time you got to your handgun under your shirt, you'd be full of holes. I guess if you are into the greaser look, you could just wear a black leather jacket over your gun shirt and show off your manly chest.

Yeah, I'm not that crazy about the VCDL name either. Also their current leadership sometimes sounds a bit off-the-wall too supporting the nutso gun lovers image. The ACLU sounds like a patriot's organization, even if it's the opposite. You gotta have a hook, to get members, but keeping the purpose of the group from being explicitly spelled out helps get things done. An "American values defense" organization can probably get more media coverage than a "Second Amendment defenders" association.

Bottom line, as I understand it is that you can't buy a handgun until you are 21. A parent or legal guardian can give you one, but someone else can not. If you did a FTF purchase at age 20, it appears you and the seller would be in violation of Federal law. You would knowingly be buying a handgun under age and he would be recklessly selling it.

Gerber Applegate - Fairbairn Covert Folder carried IWB at 8:00 o'clock. Recommended to me by a LE friend in North Carolina.

(B14) May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)? [back] Yes. However, possession of handguns by juveniles (less than 18 years of age) is generally unlawful. Juveniles generally may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting. [18 U.S.C. 922(x)]

You know, there are some disadvantages to having "gun" in the name of the organization. It makes you an easier target. The Virginia Civil Defense League name expands the scope of the organization beyond just guns. Bear in mind that any formal group needs to be incorporated for liability reasons. Just something to think about.

It's really easy to get bad "leadership" and screw up a good thing. All it takes is one jerk-off who thinks he knows everything, makes pronouncements from on high, and calls you an idiot if you disagree with him. I think the emphasis needs to be on a fun get-together and use that to provide positive input into the political process - not have a political group that also has get-togethers. Whether that is under the TGO label or it's TGO forum members who do it separately makes little difference. The board just makes a nice place to plan.

I looked into TFA several years ago and asked around the local gun shops to see what they thought of them. Main reaction I got was a blank stare. The few other reactions were along the lines of, "it's a lawyer in Nashville who takes your money." It was meant as a pejorative. Not commenting on the truth or falsity of the last comment, but the group is not well know even among gun folks. Or at least they aren't know around here. I decided to not join when John couldn't find time to arrange for a convention. That's not to say he/they don't do their part. But I've been working with politicians since I was in college back in the Pleistocene. You get more done with constituents calling them than hiring a lobbyist. From what I seen, the TFA is one paid lobbyist, a few dedicated helpers, and a few scattered chapters that get together for supper and a speech. I'm not saying that is bad. I occasionally consider driving the hour+ down to Morristown for one of their meetings. But except for a lot of bitching on their board and Harris wandering around the legislative offices once a year, I don't see a flurry of activity. Maybe that's because I'm over here in the boonies and don't see the pandemonium at TFA. My feeling is we let them do their thing, while TGO would be more of a grassroots local emphasis group. We largely agree on the problems as individual members. I think we also see the same legislative solutions. I've started a number of groups. Generally headed them until I insisted someone else take over. But you have to have local meetings/get-togethers/whatever. Just being a member of a group 200 miles away doesn't keep membership and group focus. You have to get together as friends and then have the leadership to get the members to actually write a letter or call the legislators. Become know as a group that has fun but has a purpose too and you gain members. Gain members and legislators start paying attention. They show up at the annual picnic and ask for your vote. They actually pay attention to you. So...my suggestions if we want to do this: I'd start with the get-togethers, as in the Memphis thing this past weekend. Make the emphasis on family fun. Shooting perhaps, a meal, a short non-boring meeting about what needs to be done locally and around the state. As a note, the local Civil War Roundtable grew like wildfire when they met at a local cafeteria on a regular schedule. The officers started screwing around with the schedule and quit having a dinner meeting (actually the cafeteria got tired of them changing dates). I don't even know if they still meet. Pick a reasonable day and time and stay with it. You will never find a time that suits everyone. Don't change it unless is almost a unanimous decision. I'll guarantee you piss off one of your hardest working members. Keep the dues so low even your spouse won't complain. Don't push membership in other groups. (Don't create divisions where none are needed.) TFA is fine, so is NRA, GOA, Mickey Mouse-Gun-A but such affiliations are probably not going to get bills through the Tennessee House. And how much bitching do you hear about these other groups on the gun boards? Build a positive attitude with the public and cultivate relationships with the media. The public face needs to be friendly and smart. No one likes a smart-ass. I think the proper image is as good solid citizens working to protect their family and themselves as they also help educate the public. Enough for now. Comments?