DaveTN
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Posts posted by DaveTN
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Mathew Hurtt wants to protect students’ constitutional rights and wants students to be able to protect themselves by allowing them to carry guns on campus.
“The constitution says it’s the right of the people to bear arms,†Hurtt said. “It shall not be infringed. It doesn’t say except on college campuses. There are no exceptions. People assume it’s going to be like the ‘wild wild west’ if we allow guns, that’s just not the case.â€
Here’s some advice Matthew… If you want to get to carry a firearm on campus; then fight for that. If you try to get someone to acknowledge that you have a 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment right to do so; you have lost before you ever get started and you will never get to carry on campus.
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While I understand and support your initial idea (not in the quote) of compliance and officer safety, please explain what special rights you are referring to? Surely you are not suggesting that the 2nd isn't a valid Constitutional right are you?
Of course it’s a valid Constitutional right; according to the courts it’s not an individual right.
You aren’t suggesting that having a carry permit gives him some right that a non-carry permit holder doesn’t have are you?
If you are stopped by the Police and arrested for no crime other than carrying a firearm, I would say that carrying a firearm is a right that you do not have. Would you agree?
</O:p
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In TN, since it is not an offense to refuse to obey a lawful order given by an officer (see TN AG opinion #00-147), if one ever encountered a person who knew their rights, one would be forced to either arrest them (if you had a reason), or let them continue about their business. If I was approached like that, there would be no discussion or cooperation at all other than identifying myself. If you've got a job to do, do it... you shouldn't need my permission or jumping thru hoops if it's actually justified.
I hate fishing expeditions and un-called for harassment. If they want to tackle me simply for having a gun, fine, they will pay for their un-professionalism, false-arrest and assault afterwards.
On the other hand, I'd be more than happy to comply fully with an officer who treated me like a human-being, and was professional about their job... I know plenty of those, thankfully they seem to be in the majority.
You and I have never agreed on this and I doubt we ever will. There is no law in any state that requires a Police Officer to put life in danger. If a suspect is armed I was not playing 20 questions with him or being distracted by conversation until the scene is secure. I would order you to your knees with your hands on your head; if you failed to comply I would keep you at gun point until other Officers arrived; at which time you would forcibly be placed on the ground. If at any point your hands moved towards your weapon you would be shot. You or your surviving family members could line up to sue me or whoever you like.
As I have explained before you have no idea why you are being stopped. You are so locked in on the idea that your carry permit gives you some special Constitutional right and that some Police Officer is so set on violating some right (that you don’t even have) that you are blinded to any facts.
The AG Opinion…. (And we have pretty much determined they don’t mean much) you are quoting has to do with whether or not “passive resistance†is enough to justify a charge for resisting arrest. It that case is was specifically addressing a person that sat in a car and refused to get out. There is nothing in that opinion to even imply that the Officers can’t forcibly remove the person from the vehicle.
Now please explain to me how you got from that opinion to “In TN, it is not an offense to refuse to obey a lawful order given by an officerâ€
To even suggest that someone not comply with the orders of Police when firearms are involved is ridiculous.
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But again, don't you have to inform the person that they are being placed under arrest?
I didn’t in Illinois, but those laws change all the time. Our department policy was that we could not cuff someone that was not under arrest. But that was just a department policy; not state law. It’s done all the time now for the safety of the Officer. I doubt Tennessee is any different; but I’m not sure.
A good test to find out if you are under arrest is to ask "Am I free to leave?" It may not be beneficial to ask this question if the Officers are in the middle of an investigation to determine if they are going to arrest you.
I guess you would have to lay out the scenario you are questing?
I have seen many cases where a person’s defense to resisting arrest was that they were not told they were under arrest (it’s a pretty common defense). I have not seen one be successful, but I guess it’s worth a try.
You need some Tennessee Street Cops on this forum.
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For your application....+1 on the S&W steel or stainless J frames.
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Our government has spent the last 100 years trampling on individual rights "for the good of society" yet they don't put these things to a vote of the society. I personally say, FIRE THEM ALL!!!! Yes we would have to elect new ones, but maybe then the big boys would realize who REALLY has the power (or is supposed to at least.)
I have wondered about putting some of these things to a vote. I think the ban on smoking would pass. If you look at the responses on most of the forums to the smoking ban; most folks don’t seem to have a problem with trampling all over the rights of business owners when it comes to smoking.
I wonder how handgun carry would do? I’m not sure we would want to find out.
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In order to be arrested don't you have to be read your Miranda rights and doesn't the officer have to tell you that you are being placed under arrest?
Miranda has nothing to do with if you are under arrest or not; you do not have to be advised of your Miranda rights.
Although they usually do tell you when you are under arrest; there is sometime no time to do so and there is no requirement to do so. If I was called to a scene and I saw someone armed there would be no discussions about anything until that person complied with my orders to disarm.
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I didn't see this here yet so....
MILWAUKEE - A judge has found the prosecution of a pizza driver on concealed weapons charges to be unconstitutional.
Milwaukee County Circuit Judge Daniel A. Noonan agreed Monday with defense attorneys' contention that Andres Vegas, 46, needed the gun to protect himself in his chosen work, citing state Supreme Court decisions that found justified exceptions to the state's concealed-carry ban.
The ruling means Vegas will not face criminal charges in the nonfatal shootings. Prosecutors had filed a misdemeanor count of carrying a concealed weapon after the second shooting, in January, and said Vegas had been warned after a July 2006 shooting not to carry a concealed gun while driving for his job.
"Given Vegas's experience, he has a need for a gun at a moment's notice," the judge said in his decision. "Enclosing and unloading the weapon is not a reasonable alternative to secure and protect his safety.
"Plus, Vegas while delivering pizzas enters and exits his car constantly; it would be unreasonable for him every time that he enters his car to require him to unload it and place it in a case and then reverse the process every time he exits. This defeats the purpose of having the gun for security and protection."
Craig Mastantuono, one of two lawyers who represented Vegas, said the weapons ban had presented Vegas with untenable choices of either carry a gun illegally or else go unarmed on delivery runs in the same central-city neighborhoods where he has been robbed four times.
"Mr. Vegas's situation may seem unique, but given the gap between the rights that are afforded Wisconsin citizens in the right to bear arms amendment and the prohibitions that restrict Wisconsin residents in the concealed-carry general ban that was never updated by the Legislature, I think it's going to be a recurring situation, quite frankly," Mastantuono said.
Vegas became a delivery driver in a Milwaukee suburb after the charge was filed, Mastantuono, and is now a cook.
"Mr. Vegas felt required by circumstances -- not only of threats to his safety but being prosecuted for defending himself -- he felt required to change careers," Mastantuono said.
Milwaukee County Deputy District Attorney Kent Lovern said his office has no plans to appeal the decision.
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Being wrestled to the ground, patted down, and held involuntarily for a great length of time is not detainment.
Being patted down and disarmed for the safety of the Officer is always okay. Being handcuffed without being arrested is also routinely done anymore. Who was wrestled to the ground and held for a "great length" of time?
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I had a FOID from Illinois
Welcome. There are several other former Illinois residents on this forum.
Things are a lot better here for firearm owners.
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Just another reason to get this law changed before one of the good guys become a felon, because we do not want to offend someone!
Is violating the carry/alcohol/restaurant law a felony?
Tennessee (and other states) just saw fit to trample all over the obvious rights of restaurant and bars owners in favor of the perceived rights of non-smokers. You think they are going to waiver on something that is no more than a privilege?
Are there any states that allow carry in bars? I know AZ tried and failed and even Alaska does not allow it.
Could a decision like that effect reciprocity agreements with other states?
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If seeing a foreign flag flying over an American flag on American soil doesn't churn your gut and fire you up, perhaps you should re-evaluate your loyalties, and reconsider your residence.
Amen. I also believe that those that fly a flag of another county over the American flag are not doing so to honor their flag, but are doing so to show their disrespect for the American people and their flag. They should be arrested and if found to be illegal; returned to where they came from.
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(It pays to know who you're going to call before you're ever in that position at 2am!)
Most people don’t think of that.
If you have had a clean shoot, your attorney probably would not have you invoke Miranda. Doing so could cause you a lot of grief and expense. When in doubt you need to be able to make a call right then and get an answer.
I’m not saying you should necessarily make a statement; I’m saying that invoking Miranda has consequences.
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But it is the Ultimate and Final word for all LEOs in the state. The AG's opinions are the base from which law enforcement can act.
I’m not arguing, but can you offer some proof of that? If it is the ultimate and final word, LEO’s would not make an arrest, Prosecutors would not file a case, and if they did the Judge would dismiss it without a trial.
A lawyer sent me a link to the description from the Texas AG website. Obviously in Texas it is not the ultimate or final anything. Is Tennessee different?
Attorney General Opinions clarify the meaning of existing laws. They do not address matters of fact, and they are neither legislative nor judicial in nature. That is to say, they cannot create new provisions in the law or correct unintended, undesirable effects of the law. Opinions interpret legal issues that are ambiguous, obscure, or otherwise unclear. Attorney General Opinions do not reflect the AG's opinion in the ordinary sense of expressing his personal views. Nor does he in any way "rule" on what the law should say. Unless or until an opinion is modified or overruled by statute, judicial decision, or subsequent Attorney General Opinion, an Attorney General Opinion is presumed to correctly state the law. Accordingly, although an Attorney General Opinion is advisory, it carries the weight and force of law unless or until it is modified or overruled. Ultimate determination of a law's applicability, meaning or constitutionality is left to the courts. For this reason, the Attorney General generally does not write opinions on issues that are in pending litigation.
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DaveTn, you are really hung up on the permit problem and it is a problem but one that is not the main thrust of this courts published conclusion.
I don’t have any problem with permits. I have a problem with trying to tie them to the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> or any other right.
A permit has nothing to do with whether or not you can own firearms or what you do with them on your own property.
The 5th Circuit has simply defined the two objectives of the 2nd Amendment. There are a bunch of Anti's out there that don't understand what the 2nd Amendment is all about and out of ignorance which due to their lack of a willingness to study the courts findings borders on the realm of stupidity. That is what I meant when I saidAlmost all of the Federal courts have ruled that the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> is not an individual right. The ruling you are posting about is 6 years old. How has that worked for the people of the 5<SUP>th</SUP>? Do they still need a permit to bear arms?
I’m not an anti, but I am crystal clear that the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> is not an individual right. I was arrested and jailed for no crime other than having a loaded gun in my car in a state that does not even have permits. I tried to argue the second and was immediately shot down because of the rulings of the 7<SUP>th</SUP>. Does understanding the court rulings and how they will be applied make me an anti, stupid or ignorant?
As long as there is a 2nd Amendment no one, but no one is going to tell me that while I am a citizen in good standing with no prohibitions (no felony convictions and/or no crazy checks from the Social Security disability office or otherwise adjudicated mentaly incompetant by a recognized and authorized authority) here that I can not own a firearm.No one in Tennessee is trying to as long as you are on your property. But our gun owning brothers in Chicago can’t own handguns. If a right is recognized it is recognized for everyone in the country; otherwise it is not a right.
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Lets review....
The cause:
1. Availability of guns.
2. Old guys working as guards.
The fix:
1. Outlaw guns.
2. Hire twenty something year old Internet warriors that have spent eight hours smokin’ and jokin’ at the range that will work for $10 an hour.
Makes perfect sense to me.
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So the next time some liberal anti-gun loudmouth proclaims as they generally will that the 2nd Amendment's sole function was to provide a "national guard" of sorts, disarm them by saying "You are correct" and then quickly add "but only if you remove the idea that it's only function is to provide for that militia". Then hammer them as you let the other shoe drop with these historical facts behind the development of this Amendment to our most precious Constitution, a document which PRESERVES and GUARANTEES our rights as individuals.
It’s moot. You won’t win that argument. Strap on a firearm and walk down the street. Unless you have purchased the privilege from your state you will be arrested.
<O:p</O:p
If you can be arrested for the simple act of bearing arms…. You do not have that right.
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Do I need to go so far as unloading it, and separating firearm and ammo?
In you are going into Illinois, yes. You should also take the case for your handgun.
http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/firearms.cfm
The text of the law....
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If I wanted to call and find out from Al. who would I call what agency??
You would want to talk to someone with the agency that would likely be stopping you. That would be the City Police or the CountySheriff’s office of where you do most of your shopping. That will give you an idea if you will be arrested if stopped.
If there seems to be any confusion I would then call the States Attorney’s office for that county. While they won’t be able to tell you 100% if you will be arrested or not; they can tell you if you would be prosecuted.
I had always thought Alabama had reciprocity with us; guess not. This looks like a roll of the dice.
Honor - Some states may honor Tennessee Handgun Carry Permits while you are visiting their states. This is not the same as reciprocity since there is no written agreement between Tennessee and these states. As such you may expect that not all law enforcement personnel will be aware of their own states provisions in this matter. Verify with the authorities in these states before carrying in the state. Ideally, you should print off and carry the pertinent law from the state(s) that you will be visiting avowing that they will honor our permits.
http://www.tennesseefirearms.com/_public/_reciprocity/reciprocity.asp
Reciprocity - A mutual or cooperative interchange of favors or privileges, especially the exchange of rights or privileges between sovereign states. In this case, an agreement between Tennessee and certain states (depicted in blue) that have agreed to honor the others Handgun Carry Permits. View the Official Reciprocity Agreements Tennessee has entered into with other states.
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Military guys might give a comrade a break if they go into a situation and some bystander gets killed or wounded. Such an event might not get reported by his buddies. It was an accident during a tense moment.
Holly crap man… killing an innocent bystander is quite a leap from giving a warning on a speeding ticket. Is there some kind of comparison here?
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It's just a matter of treating everyone the same.
I use to have military guys hand me their ID card with their driver’s license. If it was a minor traffic offense I let them go because they were serving their county.
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A local liquor store would detain and call the police on any minor that tried to purchase alcohol. (That is a criminal misdemeanor in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State>Illinois</st1:State>). I was detailed to that store and they had a 20 year old in custody. They said that their store policy was to press charges against anyone underage attempting to purchase and they wanted him arrested.
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The long hair freak behind the counter said the guy tried to use a military ID and that didn’t mean chit to him.
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The guy was 20 years old, had done 2 years active duty in the Army, and was in the reserves. I took him outside, explained to him just the act of attempting to purchase was a crime. I told him to consider this a warning and let him go. (I would have given him a ride home if he had been in the Navy or Marines.)
<O:p</O:p
Does giving the military a break knock me down even lower of the Professional scale? Or is okay because they aren’t cops?
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Professional courtesy is something someone with professional shills does to barter their services. It has nothing to do with letting others ignore laws. That's not professional courtesy, it's unprofessional behavior. It should be criminal behavior.
You are correct it is not “professional courtesyâ€.
Criminal behavior?? Keep in mind that we are talking here about a cop not writing another cop on a minor traffic violation. You want to make him a criminal for that but still have the discretion to let you go?
<O:p</O:p
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All this is too confusing. There ought to be some kind of national policy.
That is how it should be. But a few states stand in the way; mainly Illinois. They don’t let their own citizens carry; they aren’t going to let you. Personally I think Illinois could get a carry law passed if they could keep the 2nd amendment folks out of the way. California would be tough but they do have a carry law (Even tough most residents say they can’t get a permit.)
Of course maybe a national carry permit is unrealistic. Look at how long the transportation industry has wanted a national vehicle code. That hasn’t happened and it doesn’t look like it will anytime soon.
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Not only the best small civilian carry, but the best off duty LEO carry. My model 36 is the only gun that I have not traded off; I’ve had it 29 years. I even carried it on-duty as a back-up.
Loaded Long Gun
in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
Posted
The way I see the law is that you could have loaded magazines in your vehicle on property where you can legally hunt. If the Officer that stopped you on your way there wants to arrest you; that’s up to him. A valid defense means that you can try to make that argument in court… that would suck.
Those of us that transport rifles to and from a place where we can legally shoot can’t transport loaded magazines (That are accessible). So I doubt it would be different for hunters.