Cruel Hand Luke

Of the highest order....

Yes FTE that was sarcasm from GTG....he has been to my shotgun class and he knows the most effective use of the shotgun is to rapidly internally disassemble the bad guys with well placed buckshot loads to the upper torso and / or face.....not firing it into the atmosphere to scare them a la Crazy Joe B.    The vice pres's stupid advice aside, the first time they need to hear any noise from your shotgun is when they hear the blast just a micro second after the first load of shot hits them since the sound wave is right behind the load of shot..... racking the gun to scare them is just a target indicator for the bad guys if they choose to shoot at the noise.....

TN / GA / AL Training Group Christmas Extravaganza! On Saturday December 12 we will hold our last meeting of 2015 season for the TN/GA/AL Regional Suarez Int Training Group!    Instructor: Tier 1 Suarez International Staff Instructor Randy Harris.  Location: The usual place- Phillips/Edwards Farm 763 County Rd 332 Pisgah AL 35765  Time: 9AM CENTRAL time - 3PM CENTRAL time Price: $60 - pay at class cash or check.  What you need to bring: Pistol, pistol magazines and at least 150 rounds of ammo. Revolvers are welcome if you choose to party like it is 1899.  We will work on smoothing out our pistol skills and will shoot several challenging drills (like the air marshal qualification ) and work to be more competent and confident with the weapon we carry most...our pistol. This will give participants a chance to shoot some timed and scored drills and get a feel for where their skill level is and see where they can improve.  I'll also be handing out some prizes since this will be our "Christmas Training Group" including a free spot in a class for 2016 ! So be there for a jolly good time or you'll spend the holidays wishing you had.....  Looking forward to seeing you there!

One of the best was the episode where a Mr Tannenbaum  kept getting his store robbed and he's telling Barney and the guys that he even put up a sign that said "Tannenbaum means Christmas Tree" and the next robber came in and said "stick up your limbs"....... 

Yeah AJ likes to roll like Barney Miller from time to time...........just kidding....   Seriously though AJ, I'll bet you'd have really enjoyed Tom's revolver class. you could have put the SP101 through its paces.  Sorry I didn't think to call you about that and mention it....it just slipped my mind......I was planning to go and take my 686 and give it a workout, but the Wife told me she was spiriting me away to Pigeon Forge that weekend for my birthday so I had no choice but to comply....priorities you know  ;)

Quickbiscuit, if you have any interest in hosting a class let me know.....all we need is a range.......

  After I kept him from stabbing me by jamming his knife arm with my left hand I accessed my pistol with my right and I struck him with it and that backed him out of the car ( I was seated in passenger seat with door open and he was standing there reaching into the car). As we seperated I brought the gun up to eye level and took up the slack on the trigger ....he backed away and I did not have to shoot him. I didn't fire a warning shot because I guess he got the message from my actions that hanging around was probably going to go badly. So in my experience the warning shot was not needed....and in MOST situations I have seen, or heard of or read of they are rarely needed, or recommended.   In your case , I was not there and can not speak on that with any authority, but in that case then obviously it worked out for you .... and all is well that ends well....but we often do things that turn out OK that on further review may not have been the best solution. Sometimes fortuitous outcomes can reinforce bad tactics. I certainly would have done things different in my own situation and given the chance again would have preempted the attack without having to draw my gun or would have taken a course of acton that did not lead to me LUCKILY escaping a clinch halfway in a car with a knife armed opponent miraculously without being cut. But I see that not as a "I did the right thing" because it worked out I see it as ..."I got lucky that time" and I do not recommend the same course of action to others.   If a warning shot is all you have to keep you from having to shoot a kid then I'd agree that was the right action in that case....but that is a rare situation indeed.

And they'd all most likely be alive if he had not fired the gun either. The issue is not that he did not shoot...the issue is that he shot...at something OTHER than the thing that was the threat to him.....   Of course you can choose to not shoot someone and still be in fear for your life. People do it every day. MOST people you point a gun at will stop their attack , especially if you look serious about killing them if they don't stop. No one (at least I am not) saying you HAVE to shoot everyone you pull a gun on.  And I know for a FACT that you ABSOLUTELY can convince people that if they take one more step they are going to get shot and you can do it WITHOUT firing the gun into the ground. I know...I have done it....and cops do it quite often....without skipping warning shot ricochets off the pavement of every city in America. But if you pull the gun, and fire it at something OTHER than the threat then you just opened a legal door that whether you like it or not is real. Anyone remember the woman in Ga who was convicted of reckless endangerment (IIRC) or maybe it was aggravated assault for firing a warning shot at her husband who was beating her?   I'll say it again...no matter how we might FEEL about it....warning shots are a terrible idea.

EXACTLY.....

As someone who teaches the HCP class and someone who has spent a large amount of time trying to educate myself on issues of use of force, I will tell you what I tell people in class.    If you are JUSTIFIED in pulling your gun you are justified in shooting them....period. There is no level of force that is "shooting but not really trying to hit them" which is what a warning shot is. Just like there is not a level of "shooting them just a little bit"....Deadly force is deadly force. and to intentionally OR KNOWINGLY use force that you knew could be deadly IS use of deadly force.  Legally it is almost always going to be looked at as either reckless endangerment (or some similarly worded offense) or even as evidence that the one who fired it was not in fear of grave bodily injury or death to the point that they NEEDED to shoot the BG. And if the level of fear (for a reasonable person) had not risen to that level then the use of the gun is not justified. You MIGHT get lucky and not get charged...but luck is not a strategy and you are a damn fool if you want to take those kind of chances with the legal system on purpose.    The other issue is where does the bullet end up? If you fire a warning shot that strikes someone then you are in for a really rough time. Accidentally shooting someone who did not need to be shot or even accidentally shooting the guy who NEEDED to be shot is still not OK. Self defense is an affirmative act.....not an accident. Massad Ayoob talks in his lectures in class about a guy in NY who is still sitting in jail because he said he "accidentally" shot the guy that was attacking him....when it goes down on paper as an accident you cannot claim self defense. So he is in jail for accidentally shooting someone.....even though the guy was attacking him and the guy needed to be shot. So if you fire a warning shot and it actually ricochets and hits someone then you are opening doors of legal Hell that you really don't ever want opened. Warning shots are just not a good idea......    So do what you want. But there is no level of fear where it is OK to fire a warning shot. That is NOT a level of the force continuum. Deadly force is either warranted or not...and firing a gun IS DEADLY FORCE. As a civilian your force continuum  pretty much goes from verbal to pepper spray (an irritant with no long lasting effects) to physical force with hands/feet to lethal force which would include ANY tool that could cause death...that means knives, clubs, guns, etc. Because you do not get the same training that police do the civilian use of an impact weapon will almost always be viewed as either aggravated assault at worst or lawful use of deadly force at best. Just like producing a knife...that is DEADLY FORCE and there is no level that is OK with "cutting them just a little". If you employ the blade it is either aggravated assault or it will be justified use of lethal force. Firing a gun to get someone's attention and or scare them is NOT in there anywhere. Might you escape without getting charged with something like reckless endangerment if you fire a warning shot? Yes....you might very well........ but that is an awful  risky proposition. Remember there is case law in TN where someone was convicted because they DIDN'T shoot someone who was threatening them and just produced the weapon to frighten them. 

But...but...my carbine is so much cooler than a shotgun and my carbine is kind of sort of a little bit  just like the SEALs use....and it looks cool when I bump fire it at the range...and I can get so many accessories for it so I can customize it so it is the coolest one on the block......and what do you mean a shotgun still makes people stop what they are doing when you put multiple holes in multiple organs with one pull of the trigger...we all know that no REAL operator would be seen with a shotgun because they don't hold nearly enough ammo .....this thread is making me secretly question my coolness and my super cool carbine and gear.... :shrug:   Yeah, it is almost as if people think the most effective close quarter tool we have had available for the last 400 years suddenly became useless overnight with the advent of velcro and molle webbing......

Well that is good. I felt a little bad for not being there, but the Wife took me to Pigeon Forge for my birthday that weekend. 

Cool. I have already taken it too, I am just always curious to see other people's take on the material.    How many people were in the classes? I was hoping there would be a good turnout and hoping to get a good representation of TGO members.  

Unfortunately I was unable to make it to the class so thanks for the review....did you also do the shotgun class on Sunday? 

OK guys (and gals?) this one is coming up this weekend. Looks like it will be a small class so there will be lots of personal attention.    If you have been looking for a foundation building fighting rifle class then this is it. We cover the basics of marksmanship and then the basics of fighting with a rifle...not just position shooting for the sake of plinking and target shooting. You will learn the"what" and the "how" and just as important the "Why" when it comes to fighting with the rifle.    Hope to see you there......

There you go. That is a good start. In fact mag changes while watching TV is a good way to get your mag changes to where they are second nature and get you well on your way to not having to think about it. Instead you simply eject and insert the new one while focusing on the tv. As time goes on you get faster and smoother and not have to watch your hands to make it happen.    OBVIOUSLY DO NOT HAVE AMMO PRESENT.   Now, just set aside some time to work on drawing and driving the gun to the target and pressing off the shot. Which shot is the most important? The FIRST one. So we should probably work on our draw and 1 shot quite a bit.   All you need is a single target and a place where people will not be distracting you. I set up targets in my office/ man room at home and at the end of the hall way. I remove all ammo and make sure that people are not walking into the hallway while I'm doing my dry work. As little as 15 minutes a couple of nights a week will yield results. EVERYONE can spare 30 minutes a week if they choose to. 

Dry fire still works while seated......I'm just sayin'.... :cool:

This is coming up THIS WEEKEND!!!!!

I heard my name mentioned.....   Look, if you want to learn some skills for solving lethal force  interpersonal conflict without getting yelled at, belittled or made feel like you don't belong here then I've always got room for another student in class.   If you want a "boot camp" or high school lunch room experience or fraternity house hazing experience while someone tells you how bad ass they are ...then I'm NOT your guy.   I don't need to make myself feel good by trying to belittle students or to prove to anyone how bad ass I am.... I'm here to make YOU more bad ass than you were before you came to class. And that can be done without the over the top histrionics. If people are interested........they know where to find me. 

Funny how no one can explain how if Bush was supposedly so anti 2nd Amendment but yet he put ZERO effort into renewing the AWB in 2004.....it was simply allowed to go away and that was that....   Do we really think that if he REALLY wanted an AWB renewal that he would not have suggested to Tom Delay (the speaker of the house at the time) that they allow the renewal to happen and to come to a vote?   So did he just "forget" to get an AWB done on his watch? Or was he saying what he felt he had to say to get elected and allow the Republican controlled congress to do their job?   The "fix was in" on the AWB expiring and most people in the industry knew that it was NOT going to get renewed according to what Tom Delay's office was telling us in the summer of 2004. There was NO support for it from the White House and they (the speaker's office) were making sure that it did not get support in the congress......

This one is getting closer...................

ONE WEEK TO GO!!!

Dry fire is free....yet almost no one does it. 

Whether they admit it or not the majority of gun owners are just not really "gun people"....just like most hammer owners are not master builders. Most are gun owners....and that is it...gun owners....just like you might be a lawnmower owner. In fact you will actually use your lawnmower more every year than the typical gun owner uses their gun to practice. Unfortunately the majority of them view their defensive guns as magic talismans that will ward off evil with no effort required on the part of the owner. So why would they need to practice?   And that is largely the "American way" ..."You can have it faster and cheaper and requires no effort , attention or discipline and you will be just as good or better than people who have spent a lifetime learning to properly use the tools". We hear that all the time with appliances and new technology involving tools and sporting equipment. And technology is great (to a point) but you still have to know how to use it, and if it involves operating in concert with others THAT is a skill unto itself. Being able to point a gun muzzle and pull a trigger is the last 5% of the solution.....yet most people spend 95% of their training time (if they train at all...and MOST don't train at all) on that last 5%. The problem is that 95% DO NOT TRAIN AT ALL.....So it does get frustrating when all your homies talk big game but can't make an open spot in their schedule once in 6 months to get out and work on some skills that if you ever HAVE to use could save their life or the life of a loved one. It is easier to just stay home and watch the game than to get out and expose your weaknesses.....   And THAT is a big part of it. Why is it that cops don't show up on range days where the police dept supplies the ammo for FREE. Good grief....if someone gave me FREE AMMO and all I had to do was show up I'd be there early and they'd have to run me off so they could close at the end of the day. But the overwhelming majority of cops - who carry a gun for work every day and confront possible offenders everyday- are largely just not interested in getting better at operating their equipment. They look at it as an imposition on their personal time to improve their skills with a tool that if they have to use will be under life and death circumstances.....    A big part is that they don't want to have to go do something they are not good at...well how the hell do you get better if you don't practice? And the same is true for the typical gun owner.....they don't want to risk embarrassment in front of their peers so they never go do any realistic training . Besides they read stuff in gun rags all the time about "all you have to do is point and pull" or "simply racking your shotgun's action will scare off the bad guys, vampires , the IRS , and other undead ghouls." So why WOULD they go expend money, time, sweat, and hard work on learning to defend themself when the NRA magazine is full of grandmas with J frames who successfully defended themselves?     Because the NRA Armed Citizen section does not report losses...only wins. You never read about the people who get killed , crippled, or seriously injured...or about folks who shot someone who didn't need to be shot , or who shot a bystander because they missed their intended target.....and those things DO HAPPEN.The NRA magazine only prints the positive outcomes. And that is why we train. So that IF we are faced with a life threatening event we will already have a page in our mental rolodex that we can access where we have experienced something similar before and we have a course of action to follow...not try to make up something on the fly for a situation we have never seen before. We will also have a modicum of skill to operate the mechanical device (gun) without having to get the owners manual out and read it while we are being attacked. That is where practice comes in. And in the big picture it also makes us confident in our abilities and in ourselves and that carries over into all aspects of our lives.....but what do I know?

Reminder that this one is coming up in 2 weeks!