Some interesting data

[glockster157]

I have always been fascinated by the performance difference on many of the most popular rifle calibers, yet the beliefs and/or loyalties of hunters to one caliber over another based, supposedly on performance. I thought I would post some popular loads and compare the data. All loads are max and are quoted from the IMR/Hodgon website.

243 Winchester 100 GR. BTSP IMR 4350 42.0 2958 fps

257 Roberts 120 GR. HPBT IMR 4350 41.5 2780 fps

25-06 Rem 120 GR SP IMR 4350 52.0 3049 fps

260 Rem 140 GR NOS IMR 4350 43.0 2715 fps

6.5x55 Swede 140 GR SP IMR 4350 45.0 2677 fps

270 Win 140 GR SP IMR 4350 53.2 2916 fps

7mm-08 140 GR SP IMR 4350 46.5 2826 fps

7x57 Mauser 140 GR NOS Hod 4350 46.5 2682 fps*

280 Rem 140 GR NOS Hod 4350 53.5 2918 fps*

7mm Rem Mag 140 GR NOS IMR 4350 62.8 3045 fps

308 Win 150 GR NOS IMR 4064 47.7 2903 fps

30-06 Spr 150 GR NOS IMR 4350 58.0 2942 fps

300 H&H 150 GR SP IMR 4350 73.0 3215 fps

300 Win Mag 150 GR SP IMR 4350 74.0 3254 fps

*Hodgon powder, all others IMR

I am not trying to argue that there is not a difference, just that the average eastern WT deer is not going to notice the difference with a well placed shot, from a well constructed bullet, in the vitals inside 200 but much more likely inside of 100 yards.

[KahrMan]

Does the manual you got this info out of also give the energy of the round in ft lbs? That is usually how you judge the effectiveness of a round on deer.

[KahrMan]

243 Winchester 100 GR. BTSP IMR 4350 42.0 2958 fps

270 Win 140 GR SP IMR 4350 53.2 2916 fps

The 243 and 270 are roughly the same fps but the 243 has 1945 ft-lbs of energy while the 270 has 2687 ft-lbs. I think people get to caught up in always thinking more is better.

Edited February 4, 2009 by KahrMan

[glockster157]

I got the data from

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

I realize the energy figures are vastly different. I am not sure I agree with the energy argument as long as the energy is adequate to get the job done. Whatever energy the bullet has when it exits the animal is not transferred to the animal, so as long as we are talking 110-150 lbs deer I think all these loads have enough energy to get the job done. Bear, elk, moose, 400 yard shots, different animal as it were.

[Almond27]

Wow I did not know the .25-06 was moving that fast.

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

Energy is going to be roughly proportional to penetration, so it's a much better indicator of performance than velocity, at least for the purposes of this discussion.

That said, I agree with what I think is the main thrust of the OP, which is that lots of folks go more by blind loyalty than logic when it comes to picking a caliber.

[ShaunM]

or you could get a rifle you are comfortable with practice and make good shots and be just as effective as the next guy.

[Guest SUNTZU]

or you could get a rifle you are comfortable with practice and make good shots and be just as effective as the next guy.

That's ridiculous.

[ShaunM]

or you could get a rifle you are comfortable with practice and make good shots and be just as effective as the next guy.

That's ridiculous.

I try not to buy into the whole I have a such an such caliber rifle and I can blow a deers head off at 500 yards. If you practice enough with your rifle you can be just as good if not better than the next hunter. I have talked to and seen people say I have a big cartridge hunting rifle I can kill a deer a mile away and when I see them shoot they can't hit the broadside of a damn barn.

[Guest SUNTZU]

I agree completely.

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

or you could get a rifle you are comfortable with practice and make good shots and be just as effective as the next guy.

That's just crazy talk.

I bought my rifle because it was a heck of a deal. 7mm Rem Mag wasn't on my short list of preferred calibers, but hey, it does the job. Ammo is definitely more than if I had a .270 or .30-06, and the recoil is a bit more stout... but it kills.

[KahrMan]

or you could get a rifle you are comfortable with practice and make good shots and be just as effective as the next guy.

+1

Glockster - I agree that all these calibers have enough energy to cleanly take a deer sized animal. I think that the fps and ft-lbs rating are really used to catch us hunters and make us buy new rifles. I think thats why people are so loyal to a certain caliber. Nobody wants to feel like they bought an inadequate caliber. So billy bob now thinks anybody with a smaller caliber doesn't have enough gun and anybody with a larger caliber is just overkill. They now have the perfect combination of fps & ft-lbs. Unfortunately that is not a set figure and will be different for each of us.

[glockster157]

If a guy wants a 300 Win Mag because he can shoot deer with downloaded handloads or hunt Elk with 200 grainers at full power, that is his business and that is fine with me. But I have seen personally, grown.....intelligent men???, miss a dear with a 270, blame the gun and go trade it for a 300 mag. Their view was they actually hit the deer and it ran off....maybe they did but if they did it was such a poorly placed shot they are going to run off with a 30 cal hit also.

Another guy (honest, I am not making this up) told me he will not hunt with a 30-06 because he did not like the fact that the 06 would rise, fall and rise again in it's trajectory . That was priceless, I tried to explain how gravity works verses bore line/line of sight and I don't think I mad much progress.

Good rifle, good glass, good ammo, know your load, know your limits in shooting ability = one shot, one kill....that is how it works.

[deerslayer]

What always cracks me up is when guys try to tell me how bullets rise. One guy had proof too--"it shows it on the back of the Remington ammo box." Some refuse to believe me when I tell them that bullets don't rise; the barrel is pointed slightly upward in relation to the line of sight so that the bullet will drop right on target. Kinda like when Peyton Manning throws a ball--it goes up, then comes down as it slows.

[Rightwinger]

Manly 10 year olds say:

Nothing knocks em down like the mind numbing power of the .223 Nosler Partition!

It's bullet placement as stated above and often fellas!

[ShaunM]

That's just crazy talk.

I bought my rifle because it was a heck of a deal. 7mm Rem Mag wasn't on my short list of preferred calibers, but hey, it does the job. Ammo is definitely more than if I had a .270 or .30-06, and the recoil is a bit more stout... but it kills.

It's not crazy talk, just stating just because a person who has a high caliber rifle and never shoots it say they can out shoot someone with a lesser caliber who shoots all the time. To me it's all about how a gun shoots and feels. Now I am not saying that you shouldn't or should jump on a good deal every now and then.

[towerclimber37]

I think he was being flippant, hunting

I agree. there are many folks who flinch when they shoot..and miss, simply because they have too much firearm. I've seen it..but it's not my business so I keep my teeth together.

I have an old 8mm Mauser..I can vaporize a golf ball with it at 25 yards..it's got great sights so I'd consider using it for deer..but only because I still have a bunch of ammo for it and it's accurate. could I use something smaller?sure! why? well..we've all seen the proof.. a .223 can knock down a deer, and serves the military well for knocking down men also.

the 300 winchester is, in my opinion, a good round for when you're hunting out west..where the shots you take are at much much greater ranges. 500 yards isn't uncommon in places like Montana, or the Dakotas..where there's no way to stalk closer to your intended meal.

to use it here in the mountains? I'd call that using a sledge hammer to swat a fly...

[ShaunM]

I think he was being flippant, hunting

I agree. there are many folks who flinch when they shoot..and miss, simply because they have too much firearm. I've seen it..but it's not my business so I keep my teeth together.

I have an old 8mm Mauser..I can vaporize a golf ball with it at 25 yards..it's got great sights so I'd consider using it for deer..but only because I still have a bunch of ammo for it and it's accurate. could I use something smaller?sure! why? well..we've all seen the proof.. a .223 can knock down a deer, and serves the military well for knocking down men also.

the 300 winchester is, in my opinion, a good round for when you're hunting out west..where the shots you take are at much much greater ranges. 500 yards isn't uncommon in places like Montana, or the Dakotas..where there's no way to stalk closer to your intended meal.

to use it here in the mountains? I'd call that using a sledge hammer to swat a fly...

Well I do talk crazy now and then

[DaveS]

Rightwinger...got to love that rifle and that dear! My 11 year old daughter did the same thing, with the same rifle! Them little hunters can't be all wrong, can they?

Dave

[glockster157]

Just noticed that looks like a single shot? Is that a single shot? Please tell me you didn't let that child hunt with a single shot . Why, I should think he would need at least 5 rounds in case he missed, especially with such a small bullet. Alright, next tome he needs a 300 Super magnum special long range custom magnum magnum, in a semi auto with 3 extra mags attached to the butt stock and 2 in his pocket. Must be equipped with a 1.5-40x60 super ranger, Bullet Drop Compensated, Mil-Spec, laser equipped, red dot superduper scope.....mounted in aluminum high/low scope rings of course!

[Guest Mugster]

I have always been fascinated by the performance difference on many of the most popular rifle calibers, yet the beliefs and/or loyalties of hunters to one caliber over another based, supposedly on performance. I thought I would post some popular loads and compare the data. All loads are max and are quoted from the IMR/Hodgon website.

243 Winchester 100 GR. BTSP IMR 4350 42.0 2958 fps

257 Roberts 120 GR. HPBT IMR 4350 41.5 2780 fps

25-06 Rem 120 GR SP IMR 4350 52.0 3049 fps

260 Rem 140 GR NOS IMR 4350 43.0 2715 fps

6.5x55 Swede 140 GR SP IMR 4350 45.0 2677 fps

270 Win 140 GR SP IMR 4350 53.2 2916 fps

7mm-08 140 GR SP IMR 4350 46.5 2826 fps

7x57 Mauser 140 GR NOS Hod 4350 46.5 2682 fps*

280 Rem 140 GR NOS Hod 4350 53.5 2918 fps*

7mm Rem Mag 140 GR NOS IMR 4350 62.8 3045 fps

308 Win 150 GR NOS IMR 4064 47.7 2903 fps

30-06 Spr 150 GR NOS IMR 4350 58.0 2942 fps

300 H&H 150 GR SP IMR 4350 73.0 3215 fps

300 Win Mag 150 GR SP IMR 4350 74.0 3254 fps

*Hodgon powder, all others IMR

I am not trying to argue that there is not a difference, just that the average eastern WT deer is not going to notice the difference with a well placed shot, from a well constructed bullet, in the vitals inside 200 but much more likely inside of 100 yards.

I see what your trying to achieve, and sorta agree, almost. That data looks a little odd. I've got a sierra manual right here, 50th anniversity edition, with data for 7mm rem mag pushing 168 at 3k...and I've verified it on the chrono...and pushed it faster...easily. They do list the 140's at 3100...but i think thats a little light.

As a quick comment, this same manual lists the .308 150gr slugs @ 2900 for a number of powders...but unless you have a 26" barrel, you ain't going to see it. I've got no barrel that will do it, unless you want to load well over max, and start compressing charges. Just run out of case.

So I'd take those numbers with a grain of salt.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Mugster

[Guest jackdog]

I'm thinking i may be one of the few who still hunt with open sights, guess I may be a minority.

[Rightwinger]

Rightwinger...got to love that rifle and that dear! My 11 year old daughter did the same thing, with the same rifle! Them little hunters can't be all wrong, can they?

Dave

He will probably be schooling me in the art of marksmanship in the next few years as my eyes start to fail me. This deer also took some time to allow the shot. We cheated a bit as I had him take a single pole shooting stick with us but it saved the day. The deer came out behind us, like all deer do, and knew we were there but could not definitely locate us. He turned and went back in the thicket and stomped a bit trying to get us to reveal our hide (burlap camo around the bottom of three trees with us in the middle).

The boy held still and waited as we couldn't talk. The deer circled to our right in the thicket and came back out about 75 yards away. The boy said "Daddy can I shoot?". I whispered back "if you have a clear shot at the boiler room go ahead, just let me cover my right ear! I heard a small click as he pulled the hammer back slowly then "BOOM". The deer kicked up once, took about two steps and toppled! His first deer, 15 minutes after sunup, and he never had a chance to get cold! Little sucker thinks deer hunting is easy now!

The rifle is a Rossi combo purchased from Academy and is a sweet shooting little thing for the money! Was close to zero out of the box and he is deadly with it out to 100 yards!

Your daughter probably loves her rifle the way he does. I have told him he is to give it to one of his kids in the future.

[deerslayer]

FWIW, IMR 4350 when loaded in a .30-06 is not as efficient with the lighter bullets (150 grain and less). 4064 and 4895 are more typical for 150 grain bullets. Not sure about all cartridges, but I think it's a good powder for mid-range to heavier bullets for most calibers.

[Guest Mugster]

I'm thinking i may be one of the few who still hunt with open sights, guess I may be a minority.

Glass is a young man's folly and an old man's comfort.