Help me spend my money (on me, thank you)

[Guest SUNTZU]

I am trying to decide between the two worlds of ak47 and ar15. I would like some information on reliable makes, and would like to keep the price around 1000 dollars for the ar, less for the ak(buying used is fine). In ar's, I would like to know what mods are desired in both platforms, i.e. chrome barrels. Thanks ahead of time for any help!

[fury2neon]

Save up and buy the SIG 556. But then I am prejudice.

[Guest gcrookston]

I get animated on the topic of AK vs AR. I'm not rational either, according to my bride. Here's what I like in AK: Norinco or Polytech with a stamped receiver, not machined (i.e. avoid "the national match"). Run away from any rifle that has "Century" or "SOG" electro penciled on the receiver.

For AR, a Bushmaster or an old Colt is the only way to go. Maybe an arguement can be made for an Olympic, but stay away from Rock River and any gun you can't pronounce the name of 3 times fast after 5 beers. I had an Armalite M15-4(t), that was sub-moa (more like 1/2 MOA), and recently sold a Colt SP1 SER#1348. I tried and failed to fix a friend's Rock River, the receiver was so out of spec' we couldn't get the trigger assembly to mount up properly... I'd never seen a rifle so FUBAR as his, the pin holes were so out of alignment that once it came apart it was impossible to put together again. I have no idea how it passed QC in the first place.

Chrome barrels are only necessary if you are going to fire a bazillion rounds and get the barrel glowing redhot. Though an aid to erosion, chrome really doesn't bring much to the table. I like my rifles "no frills" so attachments really don't do much for me and attaching points are wasted. I just picked up a Sig556 and it has "WTF" written all over it. Gosh, I wish they'd just given me a 550 or 551 foregrip. I have no use for the Picatinny rails.

[Guest SUNTZU]

Is that a romanian underfolder in the picture?

[Guest gcrookston]

Is that a romanian underfolder in the picture?

Norinco "no date/no import mark" must have fallen off the bus in canada,

the others are (from top to bottom), HK93 and 91, Factory /26\ AK, Colt SP1, Russian 1958 SKS (no import mark, either), and an M1A1 SNM

[BimmerFreak]

For AR, a Bushmaster or an old Colt is the only way to go. Maybe an arguement can be made for an Olympic, but stay away from Rock River and any gun you can't pronounce the name of 3 times fast after 5 beers.

Wow, those are really bold statements regarding manufactures.

Mind if I ask what experiences led you to those conclusions?

Im curious, since if asked my recommendations, those are the three I would recommend AGAINST.

[The Rabbi]

My limited experience with ARs tells me there is virtually no difference between them. There are about 3 barrel manufacturers. So whether it says Colt or Armalite or whatever you will end up with the same barrel. The only exception seems to be Colt, which delights in making things different, but not better, than anyone else.

People go on about the Sabre Defense ARs. They tell me "oh, they're really tight." That's nice. Will the gun shoot better, last longer, or hit more accurately because of that? I really don't know. And it isn't worth what they're asking for me to find out.

As for the OP, it depends on what you want to do with it. I think ARs are more versatile and fun to shoot, and more customizable, than AKs. I also think Mini14s are woefully undervalued for what they are.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Just go buy a Daewoo DR-200, in .223, and have the best of both worlds... AK upper and an AR receiver.

I actually owned one of these about 10 years ago and it was a very nice rifle. Unfortunately I sold it a few years later, when I was taking a break from guns and shooting... and part of me still wishes I had that rifle. They're not very common when you go out shooting, very durable, and mine (with rail and optics) was really accurate. Even had the adjustable gas system for cold weather and launching grenades off the end of it. (no joke)

Of course, Clinton's regime banned all future imports of that rifle... but they're still out there to buy.

EDIT: Here's a DR200 like the one I had... http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=87811972

[Guest gcrookston]

I've owned Colts, Bushmasters, Olympics and Armalites. I had the misfortune of working on a friend's Rock River. I prefer Colt pre-bans for their resale value, Olympics for their fit and finish and Bushmasters for their drop in the mud functionality. The Armalite I had was 1/2 MOA out of the box, but had minor issues in the assembly process (failure to secure the free floating hand guard). The Rock River lower was so out of spec we couldn't get it together again after stipping it to try and figure out what was causing the failure to fire (hammer was not contacting the firing pin - couldn't, it was stricking too low - could never have passed QC, but shipped anyway).

I was thinking about getting a POF until I saw one that had catastrophic failure at Firing Line in Murfreesboro with USGI ball. After getting my Sig556, I'm not certain I will get another AR again, except as a churn and turn (I usually keep about 5 to 10 weapons to sell)

[Guest Mugster]

I'm not a big colt fan, only because they are not worth the premium you pay, imo. I guess if you are collecting thats something else. New colts can be had as they are selling to the law enforcement market. No opinion on olympic.

Of them all, I think the Rock River's give the best value for the money in a built rifle. Fit and finish is pretty good, and the 2 stage match RRA trigger's are very good for the price. Although they are all pretty close overall. DPMS is another one to consider in a pre-built rifle, especially if you just want a plinker.

Chrome lining is not necessary. I get my barrel's chromed as I tend to buy stuff for a lifetime, and I shoot alot. Its worth another couple thousand shots on barrel life, and you don't give up much accuracy in the chroming process.

I have a sabre defense lower. Their finish is superior, but the machining is no better than anybody else, imo. All the ar makers occasionally produce a dud. When I was buying said lower I went through 2 or 3 with rough machining marks or bad spots on the finish to get a good one. "Let the buyer beware"....that means do a function check and know what you are getting before you lay out the cash. If something is not right, pass it up. If you don't know what to look for, take someone with you who does.

[willis68]

I have a close friend whom is a DEA agent, has been for several years, he convinced me to go with Rock River, the Government model I own is the civillian version of what he carries, I could not be happier with the fit finish, accuracy and build quality, I have turned on 3 of my friends to RRA AR's after they shot mine, and all of us could not be happier.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

+1 for RRA

I've had the pleasure of owning a Rock River Arms AR-15 in the past, and have nothing but good things to say about it. It was highly accurate, durable, and very well put together. I'd definitely recommend them to others, as well.

[Guest SUNTZU]

I have been reading a lot of the posts in other threads and it seems that rock river arms is getting a thumbs up for the ars. I want a weapon that can stand a lot of use/abuse. I hope to attend training classes so I know what I am doing if a situation warrants using a rifle, and not just being a target for someone else. I have also read a lot about the ruggedness of aks and sks variants of aks, but I could fit what I know about aks on a postage stamp.

There is a gun show in Knoxville and I am thinking of picking up one of the two, I just don't want to waste my money. I am sitting next to a stack of gun magazines and 2008 buyers guide magazines that I have read regarding ars. Everything I read seems to be just a longer advertisement. I want to avoid trial and error with my wallet and get some first hand information on both ak and ar platforms from actual shooters here at TGO. Thanks again!

[Guest SUNTZU]

Verbal, which Rock River AR?

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Verbal, which Rock River AR?

I'd have to scour their site to see which variant of their LAR-15 rifles it was, as it's been a few years, but here is a photo of the one I had:

Ended up selling it, before I entered the Air Force, to an older gentleman in TX. He emailed me, shortly after taking possession of it, and said he was very happy with the rifle and results at the range.

[molonlabetn]

If you like to customize your rifle with tactical accoutrement's, get an AR... if you like to shoot at long ranges for accuracy, get an AR... if you want confidence in the functionality of your weapon if you should be required to fight with it in stressful or less-than-ideal situations, get an AK.

The AR is good in many roles, but the master of none (without extensive customization which destroys its versatility). The AK sucks at anything but down and dirty fighting, and digestion of cheap ammo.

I sold my ARs for a nice AK, set it up like I want, and have become familiar with it... not because I intend to do any fighting, but because if I do need to, I'll really need to. Plus, the AK makes a better club up close and personal. I'm not into long range precision shooting, so it's not a priority for me.

It really depends on what you want to do with the rifle... If you want to do many things, and have only one rifle, an AR would be the best choice.

[Guest ACMM]

"...1000 dollars for the ar, less for the ak..."

If 1k is your limit get the AK, 10 mags and a couple cases of ammo for it.

[Guest JLowe]

You live in Knoxville, go to predator custom shop and talk with Jim or Mike. Both are extremely knowledgeable and will inform you as to all aspects of the AR with out being prejudice to their own guns. I own a Bushmaster and a Predator and the later out shoots the Bushmaster by a ton.

[Guest HexHead]

If you like to customize your rifle with tactical accoutrement's, get an AR... if you like to shoot at long ranges for accuracy, get an AR... if you want confidence in the functionality of your weapon if you should be required to fight with it in stressful or less-than-ideal situations, get an AK.

You just made a strong case for the SIG 556.

[wareagle]

Wow, those are really bold statements regarding manufactures.

Mind if I ask what experiences led you to those conclusions?

Im curious, since if asked my recommendations, those are the three I would recommend AGAINST.

Hero: Why would you recommend against Bushmaster? I'm in agreement with Oly and Colt. BM and a number of others are on my recommended list.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Hero: Why would you recommend against Bushmaster? I'm in agreement with Oly and Colt. BM and a number of others are on my recommended list.

I'm not Joe, but if you don't mind, I toss out my opinion on the issue of Bushmaster.

Bushmaster has been known to have a few QC issues in the past, specifically with canted front sight bases and unstaked gas keys. Is that to say that all of BFI's products are so aflicted? No, but there has been plenty of antecdotal evidence.

I've owned Bushmaster, Colt (x2), Olympic, Doublestar, Sabre Defence, CavArms, and SNS Industries over the years. The one I was least satisfied with was the Olympic, their QC has never been impressive. The Colts were great, being the only AR's which are 100% built to the U.S. military specifications. However, for most people's uses, they are actually overbuilt, and therefore, not necessarily always worth the added expense.

Many of the other, smaller manufacturers, do a pretty good job of building rifles well suited to most civilian's needs. Personally, I would recommend the following brands:

Colt (if you really want to spend the extra money, even though the net gain in performance is marginal)

Armalite

Rock River

DPMS

Doublestar

Sabre Defence

Stag (although, they do have an ugly logo)

There are some manufacturers who make stripped lowers which will work fine once built, such as Spike's Tactical and Essential Arms.

There are some manufacturers who make rifles which don't really impress me in the least, such as High-Standard and Olympic.

Bushmaster appears to be a bit of a crap-shoot nowadays.

There are quite a number of other boutique manufacturers (smaller, more custom builders) who make a great product, but will cost you dearly, such as Wilson Combat, Noveske, LMT, and POF.

Edited February 27, 2008 by ETS_Inc

[wareagle]

Frank: Thanks for info. I"ve always folllowed the ABCD rule (Armalite, Bushmaster, Cold, DPMS). Over the years, Sabre, Double star, Stag, etc have been added to my list.

I guess I am a bit surprised by the BM quality issues. I've owned several over the years, including one of the "purple" ones from the early years. I've also owned a DMPS or two that was lacking (cast lower or rough finish).

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. They are highly valued!

[Guest atomemphis]

i am reading that for $500, a Vector Arms AK is a good buy. No FHE though.

[strickj]

Someone said double star.Is this the same thing as double star? http://www.centerfiresystems.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=264

[Guest atomemphis]

No, DoubleStar is literally just that. Star and DoubleStar are different I believe.