training in east tn or western nc

[Guest salb3039]

Does anybody know of any schools that teach classes in East TN (no more west than Knoxville) or West NC (Asheville)?

I like the idea behind Tactical Response but am not going that far away. I think I'd be interested in a Defensive Pistol class, blunt/edged weapon, hand-to-hand.... and I'd love to take a offensive/defense driving class.

I found one in Knoxville a while back, but I can't find it now.

[Guest TonyM]

Get enough people together and the Tactical Response guys will come to you.

[James Yeager]

Train for free:

http://www.tacticalresponse.com/training/free.php

[Marswolf]

I'd contact Mike Murray Mcm1718@yahoo.com, or Terry Dixon oldgrunt@charter.net at Unaka Rod & Gun and see if they know of anyone. They teach the courses for handgun permits and hunter safety and might know who in our area teaches the other stuff.

Terry is a retired Marine who knows how to stay in a fight rather than hide but I don't think he teaches the stuff you want.

[ghawk249]

Try TAC2.net located in Greeneville,TN.

[Marswolf]

Have you done training with him?

Did a quick Google search. He's a chiropractor in Greeneville. Lots of schools he's attended and NRA certifications. He throws in the kitchen sink of all the stuff he does, like being a private pilot. When you start padding the list, I get suspicious.

I also don't see anything about military service. That seems to be common among firearms training instructors for some reason.

I hate being the negative old grump, but I've been around long enough to sense when there is probably a problem. It's a sense that has come in handy on several occasions. People who are really good at what they do don't have to build up their list of accomplishments and sell themselves.

We have a local guy who does, and teaches, martial arts. Someone told me that Special Forces guys come in to train with him up in the National Forest every year. I had met him and knew he was good, but questioned whether he was that good. I made a couple of phone calls to some SF friends and found out that the story is true. He serves as a military adviser and survival-skills instructor. He doesn't have a website. He doesn't do all the martial arts hokum either with the bowing and crap. Unless you are into serious martial arts stuff, you have probably never heard of him. He does have a serious military background. He's the real stuff. That's all I'll say about that.

Beware of people who "puff their wares" and always do a little background check on them.

Bryant may be fine as a trainer. I don't find a list of people who hate his guts and that's good. But with what little I know, I doubt I'd go to him for training to protect myself. But I'd gladly take a beginning firearms safety class or a carry class from him.

[SkWaShDeM]

Ask around at the gun shops in Greeneville about Bryant. You might get some responses that are less than stellar reviews of TAC2.

[Marswolf]

Ah...the secrets start coming out.

[Guest Shay VanVlymen]

Student reviews of courses are the best way to know what to expect when you train with a specific school or instructor. There are plenty of people who TALK about training but don't really have any themselves so take their advice with a grain of salt. If you want to know about a school, find students who have actually been there and get their input.

[Marswolf]

I'm not sure about that. They are students. If they have been to several classes under different and good instructors they have a comparison. Without that, they may not know if the training was good or not. Only if it was fun or made them feel good. There are lots of people who thought they had good training but who are now six feet under. Even people who have good training on paper often don't have it in real life. I interact a lot with LEOs who have a lot of bad training but don't realize it. With a bit of work, we straighten out the bad tactics and substitute proper ones. But before our session, they would have said they had good training.

About a year ago, I once did several sessions with SWAT teams on building clearing. I took a few minutes talking about why their uniforms were a poor choice because of their infrared signature. One team looked at me like I was from Mars. No one had ever mentioned it to them. What is common military practice wasn't even mentioned to civilian LE doing related activities. They had poor training, but had thought their training was top notch. They changed their uniforms, BTW.

Testimonials are sort of like eye-witness testimony. You have to understand that what is being said isn't necessarily what happened. And the world is full of people who fall for con men and will swear up and down the guy who takes them to the cleaners is a great guy. Happens a lot with religion - Jim Baker, Jim Jones, Jimmy Swagart. Lot's of people named Jim.

[Rifleman]

Marswolf, I would like to respectfully request you qualify yourself for some of the statements you make in this training forum. The only reason I ask for something like this is because you have so many discouraging things to say to people considering training and I am wondering what your motives are (I do not like to guess or make assumptions) You have even stated civilians who receive tactical training "look silly" and are making "an attempt at reflected and false glory that has not been earned".

Are you a professional tactical or firearms instructor?

Have you received any training from professional instructors other than government issued training?

If so what courses have you completed with what outfits?

[Marswolf]

Need to know, Rifleman. Sorry. I will tell you that I've been doing this when asked for many years. Some people seem to think I know what I'm doing. I was asked to come out of retirement after 9-11. This isn't pretend for me. You can believe it or not.

As far as motives, they are just to help people when I have time for this recreation. I've learned a few things along the line about training and about people.

As I've said, you need to check people out. I like training, even pseudo-military training, if done for the right reasons. But it isn't going to make you a warrior. There is a real danger in thinking it will.

[saintsfanbrian]

Rifleman, not that I am pretending to speak for Marswolf, but does it really matter if all of his training is military?

Personally, I have seen some of the grandious statements made by people on this forum that claim to have years and years of training and instruction but the words they are saying is strictly opinion and not fact.

I have to admit, though I have had no formal training outside of the military, that many of the "training" classes that I have seen mentioned do not appear to be anything more than a group of buddies going out to some fields and pretending to be Rangers or Seal Team 7. The applications that they are "training" for are not realistic as I doubt seriously that most "civilians" will ever be involved in a situation where the vehicle they are standing next to is on fire while they are having to put down supressive fire so their friends can make their ways out of the Denny's.

Some of the pictures that I have seen from the Offensive Pistol course, appear to be just that. Where are the photos of the mom pushing the shopping cart while Joe Mugger comes up from behind and assaults her? I don't see those, but I do see a bunch of people handling weapons like I see on Numb3rs on Friday nights. Do I see a reason to cover my vital organs with my weak arm? Yup, but then again, I see a reason to have as much control of the weapon as possible since more likely than not the attack is going to happen between 7 and 10 feet.

Is there a whole bunch of Bravado on an anonymous internet forum? Sure, we all have typed something to make ourselves sound better.

Again, not trying to speak for anyone else, I am just offering my 2 cents on the topic of training.

Should you take training? Of course, take as much as you can afford from people you trust!!! Get their backgrounds. Know the person you are taking a class from. If you only talk to people that have taken training from that one person, you are not getting a true idea as to the caliber of their teaching. Talk to people that have been to different training classes by different instructors at different schools.

This is the reason many businesses look for people whose post graduate work is done at a different school than their undergraduate work. If you are constantly learning from one person, you might very well constantly be learning that one persons bad habits.

And what does it matter whether or not he is a professional tactical or firearms instructor? Can the student not be the teacher also?

Another point that I would like to make, it seems to me that every time training of any sort gets mentioned, one or two people get on and start insisting on taking a class from one particular school. That this school above all is the ultimate in training. The original poster mentioned East TN or West NC. It was then suggested by two members of a certain academy that they Drum up all kinds of business by getting as many people together as they could to bring the instructors of that Academy to them. I don't know, but to me it's like saying, "Where's the best burger in Memphis?" and having some one reply, "Get all of your friends together to pay for my travel expenses and materials, and I will come to Memphis and for doing this, I won't charge you to eat." Get my point?

P.S. Huey's has one of the best burgers in Memphis.

Oh and Salb,

Look for an IDPA league in your area. Many of them can assist you with working on target acquisition and drawing and firing under stress. Don't worry about a fancy rig etc. See if you can watch and maybe shoot a round.

[molonlabetn]

I don't presume to answer for Mars, but I don't believe that the issue is whether or not 'training' in-and-of itself is glorified or demonized... The perception that I get is that there is an egotistical posture which differentiates between non-military individuals who pursue 'tactical' training, as opposed to 'defensive' training...

So, is it wrong to question the motives or backgrounds of those who solicit money for such things, when they consistently dismiss or disparage anything which does not conform to their opinion or point of view?

Open skepticism and is not about attacking another person's ideas or lively-hood... it is about making sure that all points of view are intelligently considered. And while none are necessarily wrong, they still should be weighed when considering their application to individual situations.

Mars has previously addressed several points of your questions in other threads... And is quite qualified to state his opinion with validity. Not that anyone's opinion is any more or less valid than others, on an internet forum. What's wrong with hearing both sides of an issue?

[molonlabetn]

I see it took longer for me to reply than Mars & Saints

[Marswolf]

Oh, OK. If the question is have I trained civilians for pay, the answer is no except for certain LE groups and I just get my normal government salary. And I'd have no reason to take civilian training.

I am a proven good judge of character.

[Guest jackdog]

Testimonials are sort of like eye-witness testimony. You have to understand that what is being said isn't necessarily what happened. And the world is full of people who fall for con men and will swear up and down the guy who takes them to the cleaners is a great guy. Happens a lot with religion - Jim Baker, Jim Jones, Jimmy Swagart. Lot's of people named Jim.

Mars I could not agree more.

Jackdog

[Guest jackdog]

I've heard people spout off about how military training is not as good as some of the civilian training. Here's my test for trainers. Have they ever really used what they are teaching in a real fire fight, a real life or death situation. Have they ever killed someone up close and personal ? If the answer is no then then they are teaching theory only, not from practical experience. Mars is not going out of his way to demean anyone in this group, he like others are only trying to stress that training is only as good as a trainer and his experience. Military training is designed for people who are going in to combat situations, and the training is taught by people who have been in combat. If your thinking about taking a course from a private party, then you need to get as much info on the school and their instructors as possible. Guys it is real easy to talk the talk, but it's a lot different when you actually walk the walk.

Jackdog

[Guest macho999]

I think the important thing to remember here is Mr. Wolf is not putting down training to hawk his own school. He's just giving some friendly advice, ignore it if you wish, but he really doesn't have anything to gain by saying what he does, so consider that. He's not a Ford dealer telling you that Chevys fall apart in 6 months.

I know the guy and he's top notch. Hell, I think everyone in the Tri-Cities knows him. He's a guy like the rest of us on here that spend some of their free time trying to help some people out when it comes to guns.

In my opinion it would undermine the integrity of this board if we get to a situation where we have 1 or 2 schools or instructors or even methods of training that are "protected" or off limits to criticism. Good schools and good trainers can stand on their own merits and surely would not mind anyone taking a good look before making a decision. If someone blows up or can't handle any analysis or criticism of their methods, maybe they aren't all they're cracked up to be.

Would you buy a truck from a guy who wouldn't be honest with you on the strengths and weaknesses of a particular model or got all hot and bothered when you asked about certain issues known to certain models? Why should anything else be different?

[Guest jackdog]

macho good point.

Jackdog

[towerclimber37]

Military training is designed for people who are going in to combat situations, and the training is taught by people who have been in combat.

Jackdog

Military training is made pretty much idiot proof.. because there's such a wide range of people that need the training to survive and WIN.

Jackdog is correct..theory means nothing unless its proven to win in battle.

personally, I think that most of our military training is some of the best in the world. As one of the dumber ones that have had that training, I can say that it works. It's saved my life in one war and roughly 8 skirmishes...and not only allowed me to survive, but to help save the lives of my buddies by being alive to lay down fire where it was needed.....so when I look for instructors, yep..you guessed it..I look for military experience..specifically combat experience...

I guess its because I know that when the fit hits the shan, that training will save me.

[Guest salb3039]

Another point that I would like to make, it seems to me that every time training of any sort gets mentioned, one or two people get on and start insisting on taking a class from one particular school. That this school above all is the ultimate in training. The original poster mentioned East TN or West NC. It was then suggested by two members of a certain academy that they Drum up all kinds of business by getting as many people together as they could to bring the instructors of that Academy to them. I don't know, but to me it's like saying, "Where's the best burger in Memphis?" and having some one reply, "Get all of your friends together to pay for my travel expenses and materials, and I will come to Memphis and for doing this, I won't charge you to eat." Get my point?

I just quit reading this thread until now because of that.

[Guest Phantom6]

Ah, the last time I visited the city that cotton built, the best burgers in Memphis are found at Huey's (downtown).

BTW, back on topic, if you don't want to go west of K-town (Oak Ridge is just 11 miles west where I teach), Bob Camponovo in Kingsport does a defensive handgunning class at Kingsport's Cherokee Rod and Gun Club. Let me dig up some contact info and I'll be back later today and post it for you.

[towerclimber37]

hey phantom!! are there any public shooting ranges around where a guy can participate in a postal match? I guess if there isn't I'm going to be applying at the rod and gun club...*sigh*

[Marswolf]

BTW, back on topic, if you don't want to go west of K-town (Oak Ridge is just 11 miles west where I teach), Bob Camponovo in Kingsport does a defensive handgunning class at Kingsport's Cherokee Rod and Gun Club. Let me dig up some contact info and I'll be back later today and post it for you.

Thanks Phantom6.

As it turns out, I got some info on Bob's classes today. I don't know all he does, but he teaches an NRA Personal Protection In The Home and a NRA Personal Protection Outside The Home course. As you say, he does his classes at Cherokee. For an extra $10 you can do the carry permit course at the same time as the in the home course. I hear good things about him.

Contact:

Bob Camponovo

NRA Certified Senior Training Counselor

East Tennessee Firearms Safety School

423-239-3843 or 423-956-1230 or camponov@tricon.net

These are the types of class I think most people should be taking.

He also does ladies only classes.