No More Glock Butt

[mikegideon]

Mike, I looked very hard at S&W MPs, and they have a 5 pound, 3/10s length trigger pull, from memory. That seemed very much like my old .45, without a safety.

My M&P has aftermarket parts. It's almost as good as my old technology S&W in SA mode. Well... except for all the takeup.

[Erik88]

Fuel injection is easy, and works better (until the computer fails)

go back and look what you quoted goober!

[mikegideon]

go back and look what you quoted goober!

Fuel injection really is better. It improves a number of things. Strikers... not near as much.

[Erik88]

Fuel injection really is better. It improves a number of things. Strikers... not near as much.

lol I know! But you quoted people out of order. Go back and look

I was trying to......ahhhh forget it.

[Guest BenderBendingRodriguez]

As CC permit civilians, do none of you Glock owners EVER stuff your pistol in your waistband without a holster? That would scare me to death with a Glock.

Don't carry a Glock, but no. Don't want to go all Plexico Burress at the club.

[East_TN_Patriot]

DanE,, I think a safety added to a Glock is perfectly reasonable due to it's light, short trigger. Everybody understands a 5 pound, 2/10s (?) trigger on a Government Model needs a safety, but the Glock guys scream about how extremely competent and foolproof they all are, when a safety is suggested for a Glock.

Again, do departments that adopt Glocks not have an increase in ADs/NDs? As CC permit civilians, do none of you Glock owners EVER stuff your pistol in your waistband without a holster? That would scare me to death with a Glock.

The Glock does have a safety. In fact, it has three of them. Comparing them to a 1911 that is cocked is like comparing a parked car with no key in the ignition to a stock car on the starting line waiting for the green flag. The only way one can "accidentally" discharge a Glock is by pulling the trigger. This is no different than a revolver, and plenty of folks have those down to a 5 pound trigger. The Glock also has the trigger bar that prevents the trigger from being moved to the rear unless the finger is on the trigger and depresses the bar. Some departments did see an increase of AD/NDs, but it was found this was a training issue and not a firearm safety issue. When they retrained their officers to keep their finger off the trigger unless they were ready to fire, this problem went away. Training issues are not unique to Glocks. I recall an officer in central Kentucky who shot an unarmed man in the head when he tried to decock his Beretta 92FS by lowering the cocked hammer with his thumb. Yes, the Beretta has a decocking lever built into the safety, and no, there is no reason why the officer should have even thumbed back the hammer on his Beretta. He did it anyhow and it was determined to be a training issue after he transitioned from a revolver to semi-auto pistol

And no... most responsible gun owners don't just "stuff" their pistol in the waistband without a holster. That's how ADs/NDs happen and how firearms fall free. There's a reason people spend good money on a holster. We want the pistol to be securely and safely carried.

[Guest Ugrey]

Maybe I am ignorant but, I have never seen a 5 pound double action revolver trigger, sold from the factory, on a street gun.

Government Models do have a grip safety, but still have a thumb safety. The only way a Government Model 45 can accidentally be discharged is by pressing the trigger. As far as one of the Glock safeties being ON the trigger, to quote Colonel Cooper, "that is like putting the combination to the safe on the door".

Let me clear up my question about stuffing a pistol in a waistband. In 35 years of owning some type of pistol I have done that around the house for very short time periods, for a few minutes, and always with 12 pound revolver triggers, 12 pound 5900 series Smiths, with my thumb riding on top of the hammer, or with a cocked and locked 45, with my thumb pushing up on the safety. I have never carried like that off my property or for more than a few minutes in my house or on my property. I would never do that with a Glock. If you are 50 plus like I am, and you can honestly tell me you have never stuck some type of pistol in your waistband, I am impressed.

I think my problem with Glocks is somewhat of a generational thing. The thinking on gun safety and pistol mechanics have changed very much in my lifetime. A 5 pound trigger with no manual safety just goes against what I was taught. The retort that "I can handle it" almost seems like arrogance to me. I have seen all kinds of accidents in my life, things that were not supposed to happen, that people had been trained to avoid, but they still happened. A five pound trigger with no manual safety, sold to the general public, mostly untrained, just seems like an accident waiting to happen to too many people. I have heard too many stories of trained people who holstered their Glocks and something (finger, jacket draw string, something hanging from belt)got in the trigger gaurd and it went BOOM. If your pistol has a hammer and you ride that down with your thumb on top of it, it is real hard to go boom. That is just another drawback to Glocks for me.

[daddyo]

DanE,, I think a safety added to a Glock is perfectly reasonable due to it's light, short trigger. Everybody understands a 5 pound, 2/10s (?) trigger on a Government Model needs a safety, but the Glock guys scream about how extremely competent and foolproof they all are, when a safety is suggested for a Glock.

Again, do departments that adopt Glocks not have an increase in ADs/NDs? As CC permit civilians, do none of you Glock owners EVER stuff your pistol in your waistband without a holster? That would scare me to death with a Glock.

I'm hoping that, by your question, you don't actually carry ANY handgun in your waistband without a holster.

[Guest DanE479]

DanE,, I think a safety added to a Glock is perfectly reasonable due to it's light, short trigger. Everybody understands a 5 pound, 2/10s (?) trigger on a Government Model needs a safety, but the Glock guys scream about how extremely competent and foolproof they all are, when a safety is suggested for a Glock.

Again, do departments that adopt Glocks not have an increase in ADs/NDs? As CC permit civilians, do none of you Glock owners EVER stuff your pistol in your waistband without a holster? That would scare me to death with a Glock.

Nope, I do not carry my Glocks without an appropriate holster. Sorry, I'm just not that stupid.

[Guest DanE479]

Maybe I am ignorant but, I have never seen a 5 pound double action revolver trigger, sold from the factory, on a street gun.

Government Models do have a grip safety, but still have a thumb safety. The only way a Government Model 45 can accidentally be discharged is by pressing the trigger. As far as one of the Glock safeties being ON the trigger, to quote Colonel Cooper, "that is like putting the combination to the safe on the door".

Let me clear up my question about stuffing a pistol in a waistband. In 35 years of owning some type of pistol I have done that around the house for very short time periods, for a few minutes, and always with 12 pound revolver triggers, 12 pound 5900 series Smiths, with my thumb riding on top of the hammer, or with a cocked and locked 45, with my thumb pushing up on the safety. I have never carried like that off my property or for more than a few minutes in my house or on my property. I would never do that with a Glock. If you are 50 plus like I am, and you can honestly tell me you have never stuck some type of pistol in your waistband, I am impressed.

I think my problem with Glocks is somewhat of a generational thing. The thinking on gun safety and pistol mechanics have changed very much in my lifetime. A 5 pound trigger with no manual safety just goes against what I was taught. The retort that "I can handle it" almost seems like arrogance to me. I have seen all kinds of accidents in my life, things that were not supposed to happen, that people had been trained to avoid, but they still happened. A five pound trigger with no manual safety, sold to the general public, mostly untrained, just seems like an accident waiting to happen to too many people. I have heard too many stories of trained people who holstered their Glocks and something (finger, jacket draw string, something hanging from belt)got in the trigger gaurd and it went BOOM. If your pistol has a hammer and you ride that down with your thumb on top of it, it is real hard to go boom. That is just another drawback to Glocks for me.

IF you can't handle the extra vigilance and responsibility that comes with owning a Glock, that's your issue. DOn't anthropamorhize your issues onto the rest of the responsible gun carrying public.

I've said it once, and I'll keep repeating it until you understand the first principle of firearms safety:

THE GUN WON'T GO OFF IF YOU KEEP YOUR IDIOTIC, STUPID, DUMB, MORONIC FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER!

Oh, and as to reholstering:

My glocks do not have hammers and I ride the back of the slide into my holster every time. I've been carrying professionally and personally for over a dozen years and have never had ONE ND related to carrying a Glock, or how I carry. YOur thought processes breed laziness and complacency around firearms. YOU shold rethink your attitudes. RElying on a manual safety to keep you from ND'ing is short sighted and will probably get you injured.

[Guest mikedwood]

YOU shold rethink your attitudes. RElying on a manual safety to keep you from ND'ing is short sighted and will probably get you injured.

I have to agree with that statement. I have seen more than one person get stupid with a gun and the reason it's ok is "The safety is on" I know some of you have had idiot friends in the past do it. And what if the manual saftey gets knocked off on accident?

And I have seen some revolvers that had a light trigger. Maybe not from the factory but it's been done.

With my Glock G26 (that's what I mostly carry) I pay 100% attention when holstering. Always keep it pointed in a safe direction and keep the booger hook off the bang switch. So far I have survived. If I wanted a gun with a manual safety I would have gotten something else. (but that something else wouldn't be perfect)

For a CCW if I need it, I need it to fire quickly. That's it. I don't want to worry about an extra step. Other than that it must stay holstered or be getting itself cleaned.

[TN-popo]

Other than that it must stay holstered or be getting itself cleaned.

Holy crap! Gen5s are out! They clean themselves!

Sorry, slow day...

[Guest Ugrey]

Daddyo- I have at times stuck a pistol in a waistband as I described earlier, with my thumb on the hammer or pushing up on the already applied safety of a cocked and locked 45. Let me give you a quote. "Personally I would go "Mex" ( Mexican Carry, no holster, pistol stuffed in waistband) only for very short periods. Getting up to answer the door at 3AM if I did not have a holster." "It is best treated as a brief expedient, nor regular carry. And it should never be done with a Glock, S&W M&P auto or other semiauto that needs only a short pull of the trigger to fire. " That has been my use of sticking a pistol in my waistband. The author is Massad Ayoob on pages 181 and 182 of his book Concealed Carry. I do not think I pulled that out of context. Please feel free to check. I too would never do that with a Glock but I agree with Mas that it is reasonable with a pistol with a long trigger pull, a pull weight well over 5 pounds and/or a manual safety and a hammer you can put your thumb on as you gently push the pistol down. I think I could find, if I looked, a number of other gun writers/trainers/police officers who have admitted, in print, to having done that also.

Dan- Why in the heck do you say, " My Glocks do not have hammers and I ride the back of the slide down into my holster"? What does that gain you? It does not keep the pistol from going off if there is an obstruction in your holster that contacts the trigger, as it would on a pistol with a hammer. That is why I do it and I consider that an extra safety measure that one cannot take advatage of with a Glock.

I still do not understand why a 45 with a 5 pound, 2/10s pull trigger needs a safety and a Glock 5 pound, 5/10s pull trigger is considered safe. Do any of you carry the Glock 3.5 pound trigger? Why not a 1 pound trigger and no manual safety. As long as you keep your finger off the trigger, they are safe too, right?

I understand Glocks are widely accepted. I also understand that if you are on this board you have probably had a fair amount of training and you are probably above the average Carry permit holder. I do not ask these questions to be a troll. I am an older guy and I wanted to hear the reasoning of some of you Glock guys.

Simply keeping your finger off the trigger does not solve ALL the safety questions of carrying a handgun. A 5 pound, 5/10s pull trigger, with no manual safety is just too light and short for me. I understand S&W M&Ps are 5 pounds and 3/10s pull. I am sure some of you here will be glad to know that I will just stick with my S&W 6906 with a 12 pound, 7/10s pull fror the first shot, and the ability to holster it with my thumb on the hammer. Oh yeah, and I WILL keep my finger off the trigger until I want it to go boom, just like all the Glock guys. :-) Thanks for that advice Dan.

[Guest DanE479]

YOur 1911 requires a safety because the hammer is a mechanical device with potential energy stored in it that is ready to release that energy. Without a mechanical device to prevent the hammer from moving forward, it's vulernable to discharging if the gun is dropped. T1911's have no firing pin block to prevent accidental discharge in the event of an unanticipated hammer drop (Glocks have a firing pin block that only disengages if the trigger is moved to the rear). the grip safety merely deals with the trigger, and is mostly an afterthought. Berettas have a firing pin block that keeps the gun from discharging if the hammer cocked and unintentionally released without the trigger being pulled (hard to do, but possible).

I ride the back of the slide so as to have positive feedback about how the gun is going in the holster. If I feel resistance on the gun, I stop the holstering potion and check for issues. It's a simple, yet effective way increase your situational awareness as it relates to your firearm.

Trigger pull is not everything in how a gun goes off. The way that the Glock's trigger bar safety is designed actually discourages the trigger being forcerd back by something blocking the holster.

Training (and proper holster selection) can overcome any hardware issue that might arise during normal concealed carry. Here are some examples:

If you are worried about something hanging up in your holster and causing your gun to go off while you are inserting it, then train to look or feel where your gun is going (or get a rigid enough holster that it's not an issue), and use your off hand to pull any over garments out of the way.

If you are worried about the gun discharging when reholstering, but not due to a holster blockage, then trian to keep your booger hook of the trigger.

If you are worried about discharging a round when coming out of the holster and up to a firing position, train to keep your booger hook off the trigger.

Oh, and once again, Ayoob is NOT the end all of training and tactics. You need to get around more. Ayoob is about 10 years behind the curve right now, and slipping further back. The simple fact that he reccomends waitband carry in the middle of the night when someone is not alert and awake is stupid. There's no excuse not to take the time to properly holster that gun if you are answering your doorbell in the middle of the night (or, you keep it in your hand while keeping your arm around the back of your leg, traditionally called a "low ready"). IT has to do with mindset. Put the gun where it always rides on your body and you won't have to think about where it is when you have to get it. Advocating sloppy mindset and tactics is not good.

Mindset

Skills

Tactics

Gear

Follow those principles in order, use the OODA loop, and keep your booger hook off the trigger (of ANY GUN) and you won't have any issues running a gun that has no manual safety (but three excellently designed internal safties).

[Guest Ugrey]

Dan, That was a thoughtful reply, thanks. We will probably just disagree on this to some extent. If you are in Illinois and carrying, then I guess you are either police or military. If that is so, then thanks for keeping people like me safe.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Ugrey
sp

[Guest DanE479]

Thanks.

I don't carry here in IL, but I do a lot of work in neighboring states where I do carry. I've done mid to high-level security work for over a dozen years now in three different states (IN, IL, and TN). I've been an FTO for 6 years with a primary emphasis on firearms training and mindset relating to armed security work and firearms carry. I'm fairly serious about the subject matter, and I've spent countless hours dissecting the matter of Glocks and handgun carry in general.