What's the deal with THR ?

[creeky]

Not many people would have guessed yhelotharbuttsekz as a password, so you're probably still GTG. I hope you've changed it since this thread was started though.

I suggest making it "yhel0tharbuttsekz". You know... add a number

in there to make the IT Security guys happy.

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

vBulletin actually stores the passwords in an encrypted format using the vB license key as the salt for the encryption scheme. The admin of neither forum has access to your password in a format that is meaningful to them.

That begs the question... how did Oleg get the user records migrated to the new forum, and keep the passwords intact? I presume that the license keys are unique for each install...

I guess you *could* hack the code and drop in a preset salt, like the license key for thr.org... but that's pure supposition, as I've not looked at the vB source one single bit.

Anyway, back to non-geek discussions.

[TGO David]

That proposition assumes he is running another vBulletin license. My guess is that he is not and that he is running the same license that .ORG is running and just imported a complete backup from .ORG into a fresh database.

I've done it plenty of times while moving various vBulletin forum installations from one server to another.

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

That proposition assumes he is running another vBulletin license. My guess is that he is not and that he is running the same license that .ORG is running and just imported a complete backup from .ORG into a fresh database.

I've done it plenty of times while moving various vBulletin forum installations from one server to another.

I thought about that possibility, actually. Didn't have any idea, though, how stringent vB might be about, say, associating the key with a single domain name or something. I guess this means you can get away with that if you wanted to...

[TGO David]

I thought about that possibility, actually. Didn't have any idea, though, how stringent vB might be about, say, associating the key with a single domain name or something. I guess this means you can get away with that if you wanted to...

They monitor it pretty closely. Actually the software tattles on itself at programmed intervals. Chances are that Oleg has already been in contact with the vB staff and alerted them to the situation and gained approval for the license to be used in both places until the matter is resolved.

[Guest Revelator]

I'm interested in this lawsuit that apparently is going down. Cyberlaw is a complex and ever-changing discipline, and there's not much precedent because it's still so new. I don't know nearly enough facts about what has happened between dude and Mr. Volek, but I will be interested in seeing how it turns out. Maybe Mr. Volek can tell us all about the suit when it's over with. Someone on this board suggested dude should get charged for stealing. I don't think that happens much with intellectual property. Probably difficult to prove, but there might be some federal laws that allow for it.

[TGO David]

I'm interested in this lawsuit that apparently is going down. Cyberlaw is a complex and ever-changing discipline, and there's not much precedent because it's still so new. I don't know nearly enough facts about what has happened between dude and Mr. Volek, but I will be interested in seeing how it turns out.

What did you think of the complaint itself? I read through it and was sort of amazed at how much of it struck me as being "he said / she said" material. I guess lawsuits typically boil down to that at some base level anyway, and my legal studies consist of that one time that I stayed at a Holiday Inn express... but still.

The attorney also seems to have taken the stance of throwing a bunch of stuff at the wall and hoping some of it sticks, in respect to the damages being sought.

[Guest Revelator]

Yes, he said-she said is generally what a lawsuit comes down to. Haven't you been through a divorce? And yes, the lawyer is always going to want to put in as many allegations as possible in the complaint. Not all will survive, but you want to cover everything. You always want to have alternative theories.

[TGO David]

Yes, he said-she said is generally what a lawsuit comes down to. Haven't you been through a divorce?

[DaveTN]

I'm interested in this lawsuit that apparently is going down. Cyberlaw is a complex and ever-changing discipline, and there's not much precedent because it's still so new. I don't know nearly enough facts about what has happened between dude and Mr. Volek, but I will be interested in seeing how it turns out. Maybe Mr. Volek can tell us all about the suit when it's over with. Someone on this board suggested dude should get charged for stealing. I don't think that happens much with intellectual property. Probably difficult to prove, but there might be some federal laws that allow for it.

This isn’t intellectual property; it is real physical property.

I don’t see this as any complex cyber-law problem, this apperas to be theft.

Although things are not always as they appear. We only have one side of the story. I have not seen a peep out of this other guy; has anyone else?

I can only guess the reason this guy has not been arrested is because Oleg doesn’t want to go deal with the local cops where this guy is, or the local cops have already been involved and there is a question as to the ownership of the forum.

[Guest eyebedam]

Sounds like a big headache for everyone involved.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

This isn’t intellectual property; it is real physical property.

I don’t see this as any complex cyber-law problem, this apperas to be theft.

What physical property? I agree it's theft, but can you explain your thinking?

The only claim that Oleg would have to tangible property would be if he (Oleg) bought the vB software himself, that the guy is still using. And even then, the SysAdmin could easily acquire a new license and swap over to it, without missing a beat. The forum itself is being hosted off machines that the SysAdmin owns or pays for, in my understanding. The domain name apparently was in the name of the original owner (not Oleg), from the accounts and situation stated before, so I'm not even sure who was paying for it or who would have a claim to it -- which also raises the question if the vB software is/was also in the original owner's name -- but even the domain name is in the SysAdmin's possession now, with him as the registrant.

So that's pretty much the extent of any physical possession.

Everything else exists in bits and bytes in cyberspace. The forums (excluding the actual software license), the appearance, the name, etc.

As eyebedamn just stated... it's going to be a headache for everyone, to try and sort through this mess.

[DaveTN]

What physical property? I agree it's theft, but can you explain your thinking?

Sure. The forum software, the database, any forum owned hardware; these are all property.

If I took control of this forum and locked your brother out; I have taken physical control over property that I do not own. I don’t care if the servers that I am controlling are sitting in his living room, mine, or a rented office space, if I have locked him out of controlling this forum; I have committed theft.

If I were the responding Officer and this other guy could not show me proof of ownership his choice would be to allow the owner to take control of the forum, or go to jail and settle it in criminal court.

And since your brother and I are both in Rutherford county I would expect that is what the Deputies would tell me when they came to my house.

But as I said before we (or at least I ) have only heard one side of this story. Maybe the guy owns part of that forum or has some kind of lien against it.

[TGO David]

It's been my understanding that the hardware THR runs on is owned at least in part by Oleg. So that's the easiest physical asset to identify for the purposes of declaring that theft of property has occurred.

[Guest Revelator]

Remember that a prosecutor would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a theft had occurred. When someone steals a car, that's easy. A jury can get that. But when it's two people fighting over a website and domain name, is that really theft? Is a breach of contract theft? Is it kidnapping when parents in a custody dispute won't let the other see their child? You rarely if ever see criminal charges out of these kinds of cases. There's a difference between stealing something and using something that belongs to someone else, just like there's a difference between acting with criminal intent and simply acting in bad faith. Most prosecutors wouldn't touch this kind of case.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Yeah, that is my view as well. That's more or less what I was trying to point out earlier, but you stated it a lot more clearly. You would think you did this type of thing for a living or something.

[DaveTN]

More info....

Drama Warning

I'm sorry I had to leave such a vague message while the board was down these last 12 hours. Some legal threats were made, and I thought it prudent to get legal advice before reacting.

For nearly six years THR has operated as a voluntary community. Oleg has been the face of the board. I assembled and provided the engine. While user contributions were appreciated, I hosted the board almost completely at my own expense and preformed the technical work necessary to keep the system available 24 by 7 and ahead of our ever-growing user demand. The moderators kept things on an even keel, and over 75,000 others have contributed to make the board what it now is. I'm very proud of what we've become, and I’m committed most of all that the Board remain a place we are all proud of and where we all feel at home.

To my deep regret, during these last few weeks an issue that Oleg and I should have worked out privately has become an increasingly public dispute. I deeply regret this development and apologize for having been unable to work through our differences in a less harmful manner. This is an internal dispute, and should not have gotten out in the open forum to be the distraction it has become.

During this time, I have continued to operate THR on exactly the same basis you have come to expect. My assertion this entire time is that the status quo should be maintained unless THR staff decide otherwise, and that we should use a rational process to evaluate potential changes. Having said that, THR has grown substantially these last few years, and our continued growth makes some kind of change inevitable in order to pay for the increasing resource commitments our growth requires.

As far back as I can remember Oleg and have had the understanding that we were joint owners. A few weeks ago, Oleg changed his mind. I have not. We need to resolve this equitably and between ourselves, but in my view neither of us should be willing to proceed in a manner that politicizes the issue and damages this community.

Last night, someone began to use the THR to solicit members to contribute to a legal fight. I took the board down after another moderator dealt with the posts and alerted me to them. This is a perhaps a harsh measure, but I will act as I am able to preserve this community. The Board may not be used to sabotage the Board, and I will insist on that. There are thousands of users out there who just want to use THR as they always have so they can pursue their interests in peace. We have already had many moderators resign due to the tenor of discussions surrounding this issue, and it is my intention that we prevent similar damage to the forum at large.

During whatever happens, I will make every effort to maintain THR in the manner you have all come to expect. I hope cooler heads can prevail to keep THR something we are all happy with and remain proud of.

-- Derek

Sounds like Derek has a new problem.

Derek Zaneah Ban Me for the truth!! Gun related or not.

Derek Zeanah claims it was my intent to transfer ownership of THR to

him. In support he quotes a May 2006 email from me:

"Derek-

Provide me your full info.

I'm gonna change the NetSol contacts to you."

I find it unfortunate that Derek chooses to misrepresent my statements

and position, especially in light of our phone conversation of early

August. I thought I had clearly articulated to Derek my position and

my willingness to join this fray in the most direct and

confrontational manner imaginable, should he choose to draw me into

it. Derek appears hell bent on that outcome, given his out-of-context

quote. If Derek wishes to insist on claiming me as a co-conspirator in

his attempt to hijack this domain, I'll be more than happy to resolve

this issue in a most efficient and direct manner.

TheHighRoad.org domain was owned and paid for by me from inception in

December 2001 thru May 2006. Beginning 2005, I attempted to transfer

Domain Ownership to Oleg Volk, as the name was one of his choosing,

the staff was handpicked by him, and the originally forums were

personally delineated, described and designed by him. On December 2005

I reached out to Oleg and Derek replied:

"I guess I've been nominated to handle the renewal.

It looks like it's currently registered to you. Would you prefer to

renew it (and I'll send you a check), or transfer it, or something

else?

Thanks."

I asked that we transfer. Derek responded on that date that he was

unable to create an account with Network Solutions to accept transfer

of the domain. In the end I responded:

"I've paid you up for another year. You don't owe me anything, but

please effect a transfer ASAP before this falls thru the cracks

again."

Justin Guyett was witness to this email exchange. To my knowledge and

understanding, Derek was representing himself as Oleg's agent in this

transfer. I had no personal relationship with Derek and would never

have knowingly subsidized a site for him; nor would I have transferred

the domain name to him.

On May 16, 2006, Derek approached me to see if I wanted to co-locate

TFL at his location. I passed on the offer but reiterated the need to

move the domain:

"BTW, I really need to transfer ownership of THR. Can you assist?"

Once again, Derek had troubles effecting the transfer. It was in this

context that I emailed him, stating

"Derek-

Provide me your full info.

I'm gonna change the NetSol contacts to you."

Derek finally effected the name transfer to GoDaddy.com and that was

the last I heard of it.

At no time was I aware that Derek was acting as anything but Oleg's

personal agent. Had I been aware that Derek was acting for his own

benefit I would never have transferred the domain name to him. It is

my position that Mr. Zeanah had fraudulently misrepresented himself to

me. If he persists in publicly hiding behind my statements, taken out

of context, I will have little choice but to join this legal fray,

recover the domain name thru the courts and pursue Mr. Zeanah for my

legal fees.

Best regards-

Rich Lucibella

[towerclimber37]

From what I've seen on THR, what Derek has done was pretty much outright theft...and now he see's the hammer coming and is trying to mitigate what will happen in court.

then again, I may be wrong..I don't know much about that sort of thing..but I do know people..and this Derek character seems a bit shifty to me..

[Mike.357]

its like a freaking soap opera

[Almond27]

its like a freaking soap opera

That about sums it up.