Accepting the Inevitable

[nb forrest]

There is not a single issue that I agree with Obama on except for the economy and I don't believe Obama or McCain can fix that.There is no quick fix for the economy no matter what they say.

I am a carpenter and the economy has cut my income in half, but I am not and will not give up might rights and beliefs because Obama says he can fix the economy, there is more at stake here. I know people that are voting for Obama just because of the economy and they have no idea where he stands on all the other issues and they don't want to know, it makes no sense to me. It seems that everyone has taken what the media says as the gospel and not done any research on their own about either canidate.

[nb forrest]

Both of the choices scare me due to their lack of experience. Palin reminds me of some hot clueless cheerleaders i knew in high school and I dont believe a woman should ever be put in a position where they could be commander of the armed forces but then again this will only be an issue if McCain croaks.

I think Palin would make a better canidate than McCain. The liberal media wants her to appear clueless.

[Guest jth_3s]

She does it to herself lol They just film her talking. McCain wouldnt have been my first pick but any man that would pass up being let out of a POW camp so someone else could go home has my full respect. The main problem I have with him is his VP having an extremely high probability of taking his place.

[Oh Shoot]

She does it to herself lol They just film her talking. ...

She's really a ditz. With beau coup personality and looks. But really, in the total scheme of things, a political ditz.

She was the old guy's last desperate gambit to win; she was picked ONLY because of a gamble that she'd bring in more votes than any of the other possibles.

- OS

[TGO David]

I have listened to the debates and he said he is only raising taxes on those making more than 250,000 and I just feel like McCain will be the same as Bush on the economy, Military, spending, and he will likely support the patriot act. I feel like Obama will be more concerned with the economy, Iraq, and ending the patriot act than passing the AWB.

#1... Being okay with taxing those who make more than you is simple human envy at it's most basic level. It's only okay with you because it doesn't affect you. Or at least it doesn't affect you on your income taxes. But here's where it will affect you.

Your employer may make more than $250,000 per year. If he is taxed at a higher rate, then his take-home earnings decreases. If his take home earnings decrease, then he will start looking for other ways to cut back expenses. Since this is a free-market economy and since Tennessee is a "shall work" State, he can make those cuts wherever he sees fit. Your job may be the one that takes the axe.

The companies from which you buy goods and services will be taxed at a higher rate than they are now. This means that the cost of those goods and services will go up to offset the losses. You will see the associated cost of food, clothing, medicines, vehicles, entertainment items, guns... well, pretty much damn near everything go up as well. You end up paying for the tax increase on the "wealthy" every time you stand in front of the cash register at the store.

Some companies will be pushed out of business because of the increased taxes paid to the Obama government. When these companies fold, you will no longer be able to buy goods or services from them. You may have even been employed by them. You and all of your former co-workers are now jobless.

I support the idea of a FAIR TAX. Tax people on their purchases. Those who consume more, pay more. Those who save more, pay less. It puts the burden on the people who live lavish lifestyles at the expense of not preparing for their future financial security. Tax cuts would be given to those who donate to charities and other philanthropic causes. This would give the "wealthy" a chance to invest back into society willfully rather than have their money taken from them by government extortion.

Your idea that someone who makes +$250,000 a year should be penalized for that will only serve to kill the American entreprenurial spirit. You are supporting a paradigm by which those who strive to do better, produce more, advance themselves through education and in return be paid higher wages will be punished for their success. It will create a whole new generation of people who don't want to work and who expect... no, demand that the government pay them to breathe.

Congratulations! Well thought through!

#2... Cutting Military spending at a time in our nation's history when our citizens are at a heightened risk of attack on domestic soil by terrorist regimes is utterly ridiculous. Why would you support that???

#3... The Patriot Act needs some overhauling, but it's not the sinister bit of legislation that everyone makes it out to be. I agree that those who forfeit freedom for security deserve neither. However I think that if you scrap the entire plan, you are seriously throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Thoughts???

[TGO David]

She's really a ditz. With beau coup personality and looks. But really, in the total scheme of things, a political ditz.

Do you know her personally or something? Because it's kind of hard for me to come to that conclusion based on what I and most Americans have seen of her so far.

In fact, the only thing I can do is the same thing that I can do with Obama. I can look at history. I can look at the history of what she's accomplished in Alaska, and the conclusion that I come to is that she's pretty effective at making some sorely needed changes and putting a stop to some of the "good ole boy" nonsense that Alaska's state government was rife with.

Obama's record is a little less stellar than that.

So, tell me more about her being a ditz. It sounds like you know her personally or something.

[Guest db99wj]

#1... Being okay with taxing those who make more than you is simple human envy at it's most basic level. It's only okay with you because it doesn't affect you. Or at least it doesn't affect you on your income taxes. But here's where it will affect you.

Your employer may make more than $250,000 per year. If he is taxed at a higher rate, then his take-home earnings decreases. If his take home earnings decrease, then he will start looking for other ways to cut back expenses. Since this is a free-market economy and since Tennessee is a "shall work" State, he can make those cuts wherever he sees fit. Your job may be the one that takes the axe.

The companies from which you buy goods and services will be taxed at a higher rate than they are now. This means that the cost of those goods and services will go up to offset the losses. You will see the associated cost of food, clothing, medicines, vehicles, entertainment items, guns... well, pretty much damn near everything go up as well. You end up paying for the tax increase on the "wealthy" every time you stand in front of the cash register at the store.

Some companies will be pushed out of business because of the increased taxes paid to the Obama government. When these companies fold, you will no longer be able to buy goods or services from them. You may have even been employed by them. You and all of your former co-workers are now jobless.

I support the idea of a FAIR TAX. Tax people on their purchases. Those who consume more, pay more. Those who save more, pay less. It puts the burden on the people who live lavish lifestyles at the expense of not preparing for their future financial security. Tax cuts would be given to those who donate to charities and other philanthropic causes. This would give the "wealthy" a chance to invest back into society willfully rather than have their money taken from them by government extortion.

Your idea that someone who makes +$250,000 a year should be penalized for that will only serve to kill the American entreprenurial spirit. You are supporting a paradigm by which those who strive to do better, produce more, advance themselves through education and in return be paid higher wages will be punished for their success. It will create a whole new generation of people who don't want to work and who expect... no, demand that the government pay them to breathe.

Congratulations! Well thought through!

#2... Cutting Military spending at a time in our nation's history when our citizens are at a heightened risk of attack on domestic soil by terrorist regimes is utterly ridiculous. Why would you support that???

#3... The Patriot Act needs some overhauling, but it's not the sinister bit of legislation that everyone makes it out to be. I agree that those who forfeit freedom for security deserve neither. However I think that if you scrap the entire plan, you are seriously throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Thoughts???

Do you know her personally or something? Because it's kind of hard for me to come to that conclusion based on what I and most Americans have seen of her so far.

In fact, the only thing I can do is the same thing that I can do with Obama. I can look at history. I can look at the history of what she's accomplished in Alaska, and the conclusion that I come to is that she's pretty effective at making some sorely needed changes and putting a stop to some of the "good ole boy" nonsense that Alaska's state government was rife with.

Obama's record is a little less stellar than that.

So, tell me more about her being a ditz. It sounds like you know her personally or something.

Holy crap and hallelujah! That's sig line material right there!

[Oh Shoot]

...

I support the idea of a FAIR TAX. Tax people on their purchases. ...

One of these days, a president will be elected on that one premise. Could be GOP or Dem. Could even be Libertarian. Might even be next election.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

....

So, tell me more about her being a ditz. It sounds like you know her personally or something.

I know her as well as I need to.

She's Dan Quayle, with slightly smaller feet to keep out of her mouth.

And without the deer in the headlights look, so she can fool most of the guys.

She ain't foolin nearly as many of the women.

- OS

[TGO David]

I know her as well as I need to.

She's Dan Quayle, with slightly smaller feet to keep out of her mouth.

And without the deer in the headlights look, so she can fool most of the guys.

She ain't foolin nearly as many of the women.

- OS

Dan Quayle was a tit. Palin seems to be the real deal to me, and my wife agrees ... probably more strongly than I do. Your assertion that more women agree with your viewpoint is going to be a hard one to back up.

[Oh Shoot]

Dan Quayle was a tit. Palin seems to be the real deal to me, and my wife agrees ... probably more strongly than I do. Your assertion that more women agree with your viewpoint is going to be a hard one to back up.

Sometimes a gut feeling is enough.

I don't even know why I'm commenting in these pol sections.

There is no GOP/DEM choice for me anymore, both parties have become tyrannical ineptness.

Small examples, I am pro gun and (abortion) pro choice.

Was totally against the economic bail-out bill, both McCain/Obama voted for it.

Both candidates are absolutely "more of the same ole", Washington insider pols. Obama nukes his own "change" vision by selecting Biden, one of the longest serving "more of the same" pols in the nation. McCain has flopped on issues more than a dying trout, picks Palin as a last desperate PR act. Both offer sweeping "reforms" that will either further separate the haves and have nots, or "adjust" incomes down to a lower common denominator of prosperity.

Where's MY party?

I could go on, but tired of the whole mess, really. Think I'd best just duck out of the political forums.

I already voted my convictions and morals the best I could.

You all pick the president.

It's all just become a big political American Idol contest anyway; would be better if we didn't even vote for pres (or Senators). By the time a candidate becomes electable, he's no longer fit to serve, all part of the current America that our founders would be attempting to overthrow if they were around today.

And really, in the inevitability of population vs resources outcome scenarios, the entire American experience has little odds of making any beneficial difference; but that's another topic altogether.

And that's all the good news from Lake Woebegone

- OS

[Guest jth_3s]

In fact, the only thing I can do is the same thing that I can do with Obama. I can look at history. I can look at the history of what she's accomplished in Alaska, and the conclusion that I come to is that she's pretty effective at making some sorely needed changes and putting a stop to some of the "good ole boy" nonsense that Alaska's state government was rife with.

Gosh Golly guys you are right she has accomplished so much in Alaska from the bridge to nowhere road to ending good ole boy nonsense as in troopergate. And Im so glad what she has done with the republican campaign money Spending $150,000 on Clothes! Why was this money not going to battleground states?

[Guest jth_3s]

Sometimes a gut feeling is enough.

I don't even know why I'm commenting in these pol sections.

There is no GOP/DEM choice for me anymore, both parties have become tyrannical ineptness.

Small examples, I am pro gun and (abortion) pro choice.

Was totally against the economic bail-out bill, both McCain/Obama voted for it.

Both candidates are absolutely "more of the same ole", Washington insider pols. Obama nukes his own "change" vision by selecting Biden, one of the longest serving "more of the same" pols in the nation. McCain has flopped on issues more than a dying trout, picks Palin as a last desperate PR act. Both offer sweeping "reforms" that will either further separate the haves and have nots, or "adjust" incomes down to a lower common denominator of prosperity.

Where's MY party?

I could go on, but tired of the whole mess, really. Think I'd best just duck out of the political forums.

I already voted my convictions and morals the best I could.

You all pick the president.

It's all just become a big political American Idol contest anyway; would be better if we didn't even vote for pres (or Senators). By the time a candidate becomes electable, he's no longer fit to serve, all part of the current America that our founders would be attempting to overthrow if they were around today.

And really, in the inevitability of population vs resources outcome scenarios, the entire American experience has little odds of making any beneficial difference; but that's another topic altogether.

And that's all the good news from Lake Woebegone

- OS

+1 These are my feelings verbatim

[TGO David]

Gosh Golly guys you are right she has accomplished so much in Alaska from the bridge to nowhere road to ending good ole boy nonsense as in troopergate. And Im so glad what she has done with the republican campaign money Spending $150,000 on Clothes! Why was this money not going to battleground states?

These issues have been addressed ad nauseum. Do a search. None of them are what you're painting them to be.

[TGO David]

+1 These are my feelings verbatim

Well, go with your gut then. And allow me to thank you for helping Obama get into office where he can f--k the rest of us for the next four years. When he gets done with your gun rights, an inquiry from the ATF about whether you were selling too many without an FFL will be the least of your concerns.

[Guest canynracer]

In fact, the only thing I can do is the same thing that I can do with Obama. I can look at history. I can look at the history of what she's accomplished in Alaska, and the conclusion that I come to is that she's pretty effective at making some sorely needed changes and putting a stop to some of the "good ole boy" nonsense that Alaska's state government was rife with.

Gosh Golly guys you are right she has accomplished so much in Alaska from the bridge to nowhere road to ending good ole boy nonsense as in troopergate. And Im so glad what she has done with the republican campaign money Spending $150,000 on Clothes! Why was this money not going to battleground states?

Give it up....

I like your tactic though, start off with an innocent enough question, then turn it into a palin bash....

[Guest jth_3s]

Well, go with your gut then. And allow me to thank you for helping Obama get into office where he can f--k the rest of us for the next four years. When he gets done with your gun rights, an inquiry from the ATF about whether you were selling too many without an FFL will be the least of your concerns.

I know where you are coming from but both parties are using propoganda to get elected. Guns, Abortion, gay marriage are just propoganda and neither party cares about our constitutional rights. Both parties might say one thing but they are leading us down the road to socialism or a dictatorship.

[TGO David]

I know where you are coming from but both parties are using propoganda to get elected. Guns, Abortion, gay marriage are just propoganda and neither party cares about our constitutional rights. Both parties might say one thing but they are leading us down the road to socialism or a dictatorship.

I agree that both use propaganda. However, I do not believe that both parties are leading us toward socialism. Only one party seems hell bent on doing that at the moment.

Just think about it: Redistribution of wealth??? That is socialism.

As I said in another thread, that idea is okay with people who think that they will benefit from the hard work or good fortune of others. It's okay with them (for some reason???) to take what doesn't belong to them because they somehow feel entitled. They somehow feel that it is only fair.

It's NOT fair. It's a corrupt, despicable, lazy form of existence. Hunger is a base survival mechanism! If you're hungry, you work for your food. If you don't work for your food, you die. The only exception to this should be children, the incapacitated and the elderly. They should be provided for... but that's not what the Liberal-Socialist ideal is about.

Their goal is to have you so dependent upon THEM that they have ultimate job security.

Haven't you heard the saying that a government big enough to do everything for you is big enough to do anything TO you???

[strickj]

I'm still not convinced eh'll be elected. Kids my age are a large part of his support base. I know more than a few Cbamaites who aren't even registered to vote....they don't even realize it's too late. I think that'll cut his lead for sure.

Dont wash that off.

Clinton's win was greatly accredited to MTV.A station who's viewers are mostly under voting age.He was just a big a celebrity as Obama is now

[Oh Shoot]

Well, go with your gut then. And allow me to thank you for helping Obama get into office where he can f--k the rest of us for the next four years. When he gets done with your gun rights, an inquiry from the ATF about whether you were selling too many without an FFL will be the least of your concerns.

Tunggie, in a way I envy you and others who can make decisions in such a black/white single issue way.

I had to vote my conscience. I'm past voting on lesser of two evils anymore. Actually, I might vote that way if I could decide which one it actually is. So I voted for Barr.

Interesting irony here: dunno if you saw my mention of FedEx guys, who probably voted 90% for Bush last time around, especially the Ground contractors. This time gonna be about 90% Obama. Why? Single issue stuff, unions, lawsuits, Fred Smith and McCain big buddies, years of FedEx bux greasing the skids within GOP. Single issue voting bloc. And there's certainly more than the national average of guns per household with these folks too.

I didn't vote for McCain even though I'm big time guns rights guy.

I didn't vote for Obama even though it increases chances of bigger lawsuit settlement tween me and FedEx.

Two big single issue items that can affect me directly.

I had to vote my conscience and political beliefs. That was closest served by the Libertarian party. If more folks felt like me, perhaps we could finally get a third party effort afoot, the only thing that could possibly change the status quo in Washington.

If McCain narrowly wins, my vote didn't matter.

If Obama wins big, my vote didn't matter.

If McCain narrowly loses, my individual vote still didn't matter, only my class of voters mattered.

To "balance things out", I voted Republican in every other choice I had. By the way, it was particularly painful throwing in for Lamar, because of strong public AND private issues with the self-aggrandizing popinjay. (one of which, ironically had to do with his own Sarah Palinesque fiasco while pretending to be president of UT).

I also threw NRA some extra bucks the other day.

Neither one of these jokers is going to INcrease my freedoms, and it's tough to see which one might really DEcrease them the most. Gun rights are just one issue and there are all kinds of chains. There's a real and quite terrifying chance that my guns (and yours) may see some significant use even in the remainder of my limited likely life span. But if so, it will be because of other inevitable consequences of population/resources, not because either of these doofuses are taking the reins. The probs are beyond presidential and congressional fixing: indeed, most of them are only aggravated by same.

So, did the best I could.

I won't sleep any less well for it.

Who governs least, governs best.

To paraphrase Neal Boortz, when having to decide between complex issues, I default to freedom.

... even though the voice I'm still allowed is frail.

- OS

[TGO David]

OS, you put a lot of thought into it and I commend you. You're not going to catch me throwing rocks at anyone who has a serious, logical, solid reason for why they voted for the candidate of their choice. Even if it's a candidate that I disagree with for my own reasons.

It's the people who mindlessly vote based on regurgitated "factoids" or some other knee-jerk reaction that kill me.

[Oh Shoot]

OS, you put a lot of thought into it and I commend you. You're not going to catch me throwing rocks at anyone who has a serious, logical, solid reason for why they voted for the candidate of their choice. Even if it's a candidate that I disagree with for my own reasons.

It's the people who mindlessly vote based on regurgitated "factoids" or some other knee-jerk reaction that kill me.

I appreciate your saying that.

I also of course appreciate all you do on TGO; if I didn't think it was a pretty darn valuable resource for more than just gun drooling, I wouldn't hang around.

- OS

[DavidD]

.....The probs are beyond presidential and congressional fixing: indeed, most of them are only aggravated by same.

- OS

Hard to argue against that point.

Now that is ****ing hilarious. :biglol:

[Guest Len]

This thread was getting a little rough there for a while. One thing that has not come up is the idea that an Obama presidency is not a done deal. I offer a few points to support this assertion. (Note: I think the odds are better than 50/50 Obama will win, but are not near 100%. Remember, we are dealing with DEMOCRATS here. The reason many of them don't like the 2A is they are really great at shooting themselves in the foot!)

1) Note these polls:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/todays-polls-1024.html

There has been a swing towards McCain in several key battleground states including Florida. Ohio and North Carolina -where now McCain is ahead in all three. It does not matter what the national polls look like, the state polls are more important. The road to 270 needs to pass through 2 of these three states.

2) Built-in response bias towards Obama. Its cool to say you are for Obama, but many people, when they get in the booth and get ready to push that button, may not be ready to vote for a black man with Hussein as his middle name. They may say they are voting one way, but may actually vote another. Racism is not a good reason to vote for or against anyone, but its there. Some estimate this factor adds 2-3% to Obama's numbers (and subtracts that much from McCain.) Factor that in with 1) above and you have a real race.

3) While it seems more certain that the Democrats will increase their majorities in the House and Senate, they don't look to get to 270 in the house (veto override magic number) or 60 in the Senate (fillibuster-proof majority). Congress will be unwilling to tackle 2A issues, even if the majority leaders are old-time urban anti-2A Dems. Why? Because the majority of recently elected Dems are pro-gun or have constituients who are and they wont want to rock the boat and get tossed out in 2010. Combine these new-age Dems with the 185 or so remianing Republicans in the House and you have no new anti-gun legislation moving through.

4) The Supremes are another issue entirely. Appointments will be made the next four years. The 2A is the purview of the Supreme Court and there its future lies. Vote accordingly.

[Mike.357]

allow me to thank you for helping Obama get into office

how is anyone in TN helping Obama get into office? Of course assuming the huge lead in polls here the Repubs have does not vanish.