Marswolf

That is what I wanted to post but I figured the training peeps would jump all over me. Glad to be of service.

Awareness is something you can learn to do. It takes practice. After a while it becomes the norm. A class can teach the basics, but you have to practice it on your own. Mindset, I find, comes from analyzing your situation before you get into trouble so you know what you will do instantly if trouble happens. Sort of contingency planning. Visualization is also part of the mindset package so you will actually take an action if the time comes. Some people can plan and visualize all their life, but can't take the action when that time comes. They freeze or try to hide. If it's purely a self defense situation and you have no one else to protect, hiding may work. But you never leave others to fend for themselves, especially if they are wounded. That's just cowardice. If you survive by hiding and you leave your buddies to bleed to death, you're just scum who is using up good people's air. Tower, as you say, getting out of the kill zone (with your buddies) is a highly desirable thing. For some reason we hear more from a lot of folks about shooting your attacker than we do about moving out of the line of fire while you attempt to shoot him. It should be a package and part of your planning. If someone is attacking you in the Wal-Mart parking lot, there is nothing wrong with using a car as a shield as you fire or threaten to fire. I have a long list of military Murphy's laws. May have to start a topic. Tracers work both ways.

I take it we are back at Pratt's? You aren't supposed to carry a handgun in there because they serve beer. Rumor has it that at least one person did pack there at the last meet and greet....

Some people are big on gun looks, some on gun function.

This all brings up another thought. The carry permit course is really a very basic minimum requirement to pack a handgun. Some people come in never having fired a gun. Some are old hands at it and really don't need firearms training at all. Except for one person, who came with her husband, that was true in my class. It was taught at a gun club. Most students were shooters already. It's a word-of-mouth operation. As a result we probably spent more time on the legalities and less on the shooting part. That's what was needed. A class that stressed the fundamentals of shooting would be of no interest to me. Waste of time and money. But I understand that a permit class has to be set up for the worst shooter who might walk in the door. Ideally, the classes would be set up for different levels of shooting experience. For someone like me, that would mean 10 minutes of qualifying and 7 hours 50 minutes of classroom instruction. Some people might need the four hours of shooting instruction. Never can tell when someone might bring in one of these.

Thanks Phantom. That post answers my questions.

Well Boom, I think you know that class wasn't "legal." I don' think the one I did spent four hours on the shooting part either, but we did get in the eight hours required.

And very appropriate for that brand of handgun....

There are lots of important issues. Ignoring one that is very important to me is not the way to get me in the door to spend my money. TRA member restaurants need to make an issue of supporting packers, not opposing them.

My view is that a place that will not petition government to allow me to protect myself and my family is not my friend. I don't patronize my enemies.

Yeah, it's a 44 Magnum. A lot of fun to shoot.

That's my point Len. But there does have to be some document setting limits on what is required in the qualification. I'd like to see what the rules actually are. It just seems to me that the standards should be uniform.

You know, I'm going to go back and Photoshop my finger on the trigger of every one of my guns just to annoy the prissy.

Well, why don't they come out and support us then? Why don't the owners of Applebee's come out and say the TRA does not represent their views on this issue? I suspect the restaurants don't give a **** about our rights as long as they don't assume increased liability. Sorry I just don't buy this restaurants as victim deal.

I didn't see the individual restaurants saying they disagreed or threatening to quit the TRA because of him.

Well la-de-da ! I'm not generally a fan of ported barrels, but had one on a Taurus 44R and absolutely loved it. It did exactly what it was supposed to do - very well. It allowed a looser grip on the handgun that aided accuracy and helped make the shooting more pleasant.

The Tennessee Restaurant Association is the enemy. http://www.thetra.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=16

In my class, anything in the black silhouette was considered a hit. 70% is always passing according to the DOS, but the question is what constitutes a hit. I have to vehemently disagree with letting the instructor set that definition. I wouldn't mind setting the standards as more strict than just hitting the silhouette, but I want the standards to be the same at each school in order to be fair to the participants. I'm also pretty sure we shot at 3, 7, and 15 yards. I think that should be standardized too. Everyone should get the same test. In my case I did 100% on both the shooting qualification and the written test. But that was expected. I agree with Cruel Hand Luke though that if someone is 25 yards away, you will have a hard time justifying the use of the handgun for self defense. Probably hard to justify it at any more than 15 feet unless you are under fire. Frankly, I don't see a reason to qualify beyond 10 yards for a carry permit. And I agree with Len that talking this one class should just be part of your education in shooting guns. It needn't necessarily be a formal course in my opinion, but that will work if you don't have someone who knows what they are doing and that can tell you what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong. So, can one of you instructors provide the official language for setting up the shooting qualification and scoring? I'd appreciate it.

I think that's a good idea as well as printing up some post cards to send any time we would have eaten there but didn't because of our inability to legally carry in their establishment.

Yep, unfortunately some instructors don't understand the law. That's why it's important to read the code yourself.

I think the restaurants and their associations think there is less liability and bad karma if no one is allowed to pack there. If their customers get shot and have no protection, that's just too bad. If they have to make a choice of posting or not, customers will get mad either way. It's just easier for the state to make the decision and for the association to make campaign contributions to those politicians who care more about their power than the welfare of the state's inhabitants. Only way the restaurants will support carry is if it is costing them money. Anyone want to boycott places where you can't carry and let them know they are losing business?

I don't understand why there is such a difference in the shooting qualification part from different instructors. I would think the state would mandate exactly what is required and how it is scored. Anyone have a web page that outlines exactly what the firing qualification requirements are for the carry permit? I couldn't find one. http://www.tennessee.gov/sos/rules/1340/1340-02/1340-02-03.pdf says that "All firing shall be done on standard silhouette type targets or others approved by the Program Director." and that a minimum score of 70% is required, but doesn't specify distances and how the targets are scored.

Absolutely, the shooting part is a joke. I think you just have to hit the silhouette. We had a lady who had never shot who came with her husband. She passed just fine. All of the questions on the written test will be covered in class. I'm not sure why there is such a wide disparity about how many shots you fire and distances. All I remember was that we had 50 or fewer rounds, the shooting distances were a joke and the class only cost $50, all of which went to the local gun club. You won't learn to shoot in such a class, but you will be able to carry a gun. And you will learn enough about Tennessee code to hopefully make you want to read the finer points of the law later on.

I'll tell you a little story that has nothing to do with guns. I have a friend who is into computers. He and I helped start an Atari club locally before the PC even came out. Anyway, they opened a new software shop in a mall and he went to work there. About this time the Amiga came out. Nobody was selling the things - except him. If you went to ComputerLand, they had what they had. If you were a kid, they rushed you out of the store in a hurry. But when kids came into my friend's store, he grabbed them and asked if they had seen the latest Amiga game. Pretty much pushed them into a chair in front of an Amiga and got the game up and running for them. The kids didn't have any money for a computer of course. But a funny thing happened...the kids he insisted play the games and made them feel welcome brought their parents in and he sold a pile of computers. He was tops in the country for Amiga sales in fact. Needless to say, the company made him a manager, then regional manager. He quit to start his own small ISP business that he sold for a nice profit to a major ISP and he worked for them as a consultant. He knew computers, but more importantly he knew how to sell and make opportunities when other shops were mindlessly turning away secondary sales. How many kids would have dragged their parents into ComputerLand instead? How many kids dragged their friends into his store and those kids brought their parents? Gun shops can do the same. Greet people as they come through the door. Ask if they've see the latest whatever and push it into their hand. Be enthusiastic. They may not have funds for a gun that day, but they might later. If they like the atmosphere, they'll say nice things about your shop and bring in their friends. Smiles and friendliness don't cost you anything.

We all probably have horror stories about local gun stores. It takes a lot of work to build clientele and keep them. One bad experience will keep a potentially good customer away until the shop folds. It takes a fair amount of money to open a good shop. You have to have what people want, not just what you like to carry. I keep hitting one local pretty inconvenient shop because they are the only folks who carry a fair number of H&Ks. There is an old rule in selling that you can't sell from an empty cart. These days, you can order from "carts" all over the country online. If a dealer has something I want in stock, I'll buy from them at a higher price. If they can get it next day for me, I'll pay them a bit more than online for their trouble. But I pay the premium price to get to hold the weapon before I actually buy it. You also have to be friendly with your customers and do what you say you will do. I ordered my USP 40 from a shop. Took him a gun in trade that he sold quickly. He kept holding the order until I finally had to get a bit nasty with him. Finally got the USP. I had bought a number of guns from him. How many do you think I bought from him after that? Not much in his shop now. I keep waiting for the word that he has closed. We've gone through a lot of local gun shops in recent years. The ones that have gone out of business did so because of their business practices. They weren't friendly, or they didn't carry what I like, or they didn't get in news items, or they never got in something new for you to drop in and handle, or their prices were totally ridiculous for the same item everyone else was carrying at a lower price. Lots of reasons.