Cruel Hand Luke

I don't mean to kick anyone's pet goldfish here, but it is not 1917 any more and most autos made by QUALITY manufacturers are as reliable as any revolver and MORE robust. Revolvers are still 19th century technology. It is a fairly complex "watch" like mechanism that dirt and unburnt powder can bind the mechanism. They can and do go out of time and have to have the cylinder retimed. I know, I've had it happen. I've also had one bind up to the point it had to have a wooden mallet beat the cylinder open. These were not rusty old 1903 Smiths, these were a 1990s manufactured 642 (bound up cylinder) and a 1990s vintage SW625. My Glocks, Sig 226, Wilson 1911, Colt 1911 (made in 1921), nor any other auto I have ever owned has ever had any kind of catastrophic failure like this. So much for more reliable..... The "reliability issue" with revolvers comes from the early years of the 20th century when there were a bunch of new european autos (and some early american designs) becoming available and the american market was heavily entrenched with the revolver. Most of these autos were of questionable reliability especially if black powder loads -which they were not designed around-were used. The revolver however would still fire if you could pull the trigger. So the buying public came to view the revolver as more reliable. But oddly enough EVERY major army in the world would dump their wheel guns for autos by the mid 1920s. If these autos were "unreliable" does anyone really think they would have switched? For military combat where the guns are likely to get filthy and maybe be used as clubs (which can easily damage a revolver) revolvers were dumped 90 years ago! The reason we went to war in 1917 with a .45acp revolver is because Colt couldn't make enough 1911s FAST ENOUGH to arm everyone with and they already had tooling in place to make the revolver and so did Smith and Wesson. It was a matter of expedience NOT a matter of reliability! So after WWII when they began looking to improve ammo for autos -sp and hp- some things would feed well and some would not. But due to its design, a revolver could even shoot the flat full Wadcutter shaped stuff. Autos still were designed around FMJ round nose stuff and early soft and hollow point stuff did not feed as well as the FMJ did. So again we get the notion that the revolver is more "reliable" but it is not a apples to apples comparison. If I ask a 5'2 guy to dunk a basketball on a 10 foot goal in a dunk contest against a 6'10 guy is that a fair comparison of ability? Of course not. One is more well built to do that particular activity and the other is not. If I put unleaded gas in a diesel engine and try to drive cross country does the breakdown of the vehicle mean it is an unreliable vehicle? No. It means we fed it something it was not DESIGNED to use.So it is NOT that the autos were less reliable, they were less reliable with ammo that at the time was never intended to be used in those autos by their designers! So no, revolvers are not more reliable. They are a 19th century technology that in the hands of a competent revolver shooter CAN be very effective (for the first 6 shots) but they are not as robust as autos, they do not have the capacity of any decent sized auto, they are harder to shoot (neither you nor I are Jerry Miculek and I don't care WHO you are a 4lb Single action trigger is easier to get good hits with than a 10-12lb DA trigger) and they are MUCH slower to reload. Before anyone brands me a revolver hater , consider this. I won 7 consecutive Cowboy Action shooting yearly club championships between 2 clubs in SE Tn (TN Mountain Marauders in Chattanooga and Ocoee Rangers in Cleveland) in 5 years- 5 consecutive with one club and 2 consecutive with another at the same time. So I know a little about how to sling a wheel gun. And I CARRY a SW342 as my auxiliary (or "backup" if you must call it that) pocket gun ...BUT I also carry a Glock 34 in an IWB holster as my REAL gun. The SW is not carried because of any perceived reliability issue. It is carried simply because due to its size and shape it is not as obvious in my front pocket as a Glock 26 is and due to its shape I can draw it from my jeans faster than I can draw my G26. It is the derringer of the 21st century. But when I am wearing looser fitting cargo shorts I often go with the small auto.......The J frame fits a niche...but that niche is not "reliability".

Actually what they were saying is a world class shooter has a reaction time to the buzzer of about .15 of a second. So that is how far they moved the "beep" ahead of him starting his draw stroke. The "average guy" reaction time is more like .25 to .35 (or more) . So reaction time and draw is definitely different than just straight up draw speed. Someone asked what kind of accuracy you can get. Usually COM hits on targets at 2-3 yards away. Now, I can't do it that fast with a 2 handed eye level shot. I'm drawing and shooting from "retention" or "point shooting" if you must call it that. But I'm also doing it from concealment just like in the video but from under an untucked polo shirt. I'll try to post video of me doing it. I have a snippet of that in a video presentation I'm doing at the Rangemaster Tactical Conference at the end of this month in Memphis.

Gabe Suarez is going to be at my place March 27-30. During the rest of the year I teach Suarez Int. curriculum classes like Defensive Pistol Skills, Close Range Gunfighting, Defensive Rifle Skills, Defensive Shotgun Skills, Kalashnikov Gunfighting, and Interactive Gunfighting Force on Force. I also host other instructors like Sonny Puzikas and Tom Givens, and I do private lessons . The range I use is a private range just over the border from Chattanooga, 3 miles from where I 75 crosses TN into GA. Info can be found at Suarezinternational.com. I have my classes through May listed and hope to have the rest of the year up on the board in a week or so. Of course if there is anything I can help you with feel free to PM me here or email me at Cruelhandluke2000@yahoo.com

Just curious.....anyone here attending the Rangemaster Tactical Conference and Polite Society Match in Memphis Feb 23 and 24?

Now factor out the reaction time to an outside stimulus (buzzer or whatever) and you will cut .25 or so off of those times............ Try this. Place a coin on the back of your hand and hold your hand and forearm parallel to the ground. Then go for your gun. That is more a measure of your draw to shot speed, not your reaction time, and THEN draw to shot speed. Depending on your height, if you can draw and fire before the coin hits the ground that is about .15 to .10 of a second for a draw and shot. (objects fall 33.3ft/sec so 1/10 the height = 1/10th the time.) Now do it from concealment. How much slower was that? Interesting thing to play with......

That is the one Rob Pincus did? If so, he will be presenting at the Rangemaster Tactical Conference/Polite Society Match in Memphis at the end of the month.

Guys we don't live behind the Iron Curtain. I have never heard of anyone in Tn getting sued after a justifiable shooting. And the statute doesn't have anything to do with the Castle Doctrine. It has been on the books for about 10 years. If they are committing a violent felony and you kill or injure them they are SOL.

Suarez Int Classes in Chattanooga Tn March 27,28,29,30 Gabe Suarez will be in Chattanooga teaching the following classes at the end of March! March 27, 2008 High Intensity Force On Force - Part 1 Chatanooga, TN This will be a high speed, high intensity session dealing with using the pistol against knife attacks. We will work on some dynamic techniques and concepts and then drill it all at various distances in the force on force environment. Every attendee will defeat the vaunted 21 foot rule or your money back. http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageA...=VIEWPROD&ProdID=410 March 28, 2008 High Intensity Pistol (Range Work) Chattanooga, TN This high speed, high intensity session deals with live fire exercises that support our use of the CCW pistol in close range gunfighting. We will work on both sighted and point shooting stationary and while explosively moving off the x. Bring lots of ammo and an open mind. 500 Rounds Minimum. http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageA...=VIEWPROD&ProdID=411 March 29, 2008 Knife Fighting/Vehicle Gunfighting Chattanooga, TN This combination day will have us learning to fight with knives in the morning session and examining fighting in vehicles in the afternoon. We will learn both defensive and aggressive knife methods and test them in force on force with training knives. We will also learn knife application in confined areas such a vehicles. This will dovetail nicely into the vehicle gunfighting segment that will have you shooting from the inside and from around vehicles. 300 Rounds Minimum http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageA...=VIEWPROD&ProdID=412 March 30, 2008 High Intensity Force On Force - Part 2 Chattanooga, TN Today we will spend the day working on Gun versus Gun force on force. We will begin at 7 yards and progressively move in as we learn what is needed at each distance interval up to and including drawing against the drawn gun and the involvement of combatives. http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageA...=VIEWPROD&ProdID=413 Price is $200 per day or $700 for ALL 4 days. http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageA...=VIEWPROD&ProdID=399

True. I know several guys that are what some would consider "fat" (but not chronicly obese)that would be a bad guy's worst nightmare. But OBVIOUSLY the better shape you are in the better off you are...

Agree 100% with the article. Actually I posted something very similar here several months back. On teachers....there are hard core operators out there that have killed more people than small pox that just do not have the verbal skills to teach. There are also good teachers (think college professors) who have no concept of physical violence or interpersonal conflict resolution. Experience is important but obviously so is teaching ability. You may know EVERYTHING to be known...but if you cannot pass it on so that others understand it and can do it then teaching is not your bag. Obviously if the guy you are learning from cannot demonstrate on demand (without warming up) what he is teaching then you might question that. While it does not take a master level shooter to teach basic marksmanship and gunhandling the more skill the instructor has the more skill he can pass on. Obviously if your instructor has never done one handed reloads while moving then he probably is not going to be confident in teaching that to you. And if he doesn't shoot well, then you have to question just how much he knows about it if he can't do it on demand. If he can't clean any course of fire he is having you shoot then that might be something of concern. Referring to Applegate, when he was 70 years old he might not have been physically ready to go hands on with 2 younger and bigger assailants, but he could definitely teach the concepts and techniques because he had done it when he was younger. Same with Jim Cirillo. Unfortunately both have passed on now.

Those signs USED TO BE accurate. It used to be against the law to carry where it was sold. A lot of gas stations still have those signs up here in Chattanooga. Has no legal standing at all as the law has been ammended since then. I think they just leave 'em up to act as a bit of a deterrant to robbers.We all know that is unlikely to change someone's mind who plans to rob the place, but few gas station owners have a degree in criminal psychology.....All it really does is annoy those of us who DO know the law. What are they going to do throw you out? Doubtful. But if they don't see your gun it doesn't matter anyways.

My local Class III dealer tells me that there is a law on the books in TN compelling the Sheriffs to sign UNLESS they can come up with a good reason not to. Unless they have info that dude should not have the item, they have to sign. Unfortunately I have not found the statute yet....... Of Course the trust/Corporate route would eliminate this worry, but unless he has info that the guy will use this for ill intent the Sheriff is apparently breaking the law.......

Disney is not posted nor is it against the law to carry there. They DO NOT frisk people, they check bags. I know, the wife and I go about once a year. Concealed means CONCEALED. From what I understand granny had no permit......that is the problem......

Most of us who actually do disarm and weapon retention training have incorporated the racking the slide(actually a tap/rack) as a torque profile action that we perform everytime we perform a disarm or once we regain full control in a retention situation if we have been struggling over posession of the gun. Auto pistols have a nasty habit of getting out of battery when people are wrestling over them. We rack the slide to clear any possible malfunction and make sure it is functional. But I don't know ANYONE in the US who teaches empty chamber carry. It is solution to a problem that we just do not face.

Not that I'm aware of. I'll eventually get certified to teach it. Right now I've only taken the basic class to get certified to use it.

The issue was that with a stroke of a pen in 1948 Israel becme a country for the first time in 2000 years. They had no real indigenous arms manufacturing capability at that point and were armed with a hodge podge of different things acquired from various countries. You might have 10 guys with 10 different pistols. How do you train these guys to carry them without shooting themselves and bystanders when there are 10 different manuals of arms? Have everyone carry with an empty chamber with safety off. That is why the Isrealis carried empty chamber. NOT because of any tactical advantage.

No. It is an affirmative defense to carrying a "club or baton" if you hold a certification in the use of a club/ baton. We read that to include saps and blackjacks (check definition of club under TN law) and had Southnarc come in a few months later and do a sap and blackjack class.

I took the class form Jim Marshall in Knoxville. He is a Monadnock certified instructor. The local training group (guys who get together to shoot, grapple, work on med skills, knife, stick, etc) had him come in and do a impact weapon cert class for us.

And if you don't blunder about with your gun visible it never becomes an issue to begin with......

The way Judge Bevill explained it in class was I can't be arrested for jaywalking (misdemeanor) unless the officer sees it while I'm doing it. He cannot arrest me after the fact when someone tells him they saw me jaywalking. Same with misdemeanor drug possession. If you have a joint in your pocket when he pulls you over the cop can arrest you because it was misdemeanor possession IN HIS PRESENCE. He cannot arrest you LATER after someone tells him you had it but you don't have it any more..... So by same logic the cop would have to witness you carrying, and not just carrying,( because if he just sees you out on the street carrying with a permit that is legal) but they'd have to witness you carrying WHERE it is illegal. And unless you are on video carrying where it is not OK to carry it is largely a matter of their word (the business) against yours UNLESS the cops see you doing it. But then again WHY is your gun visible to begin with ? Why is the business filing a complaint? That largely solves a lot of the problem here...... Again I'm NOT suggesting any individual take any course of action.And this is not legal advice. Do people get arrested everyday for stuff that gets thrown out or for stuff that the DA chooses not to file charges on? Yes. Of course. Again I'm not giving legal advice.

Read the statute. Strange but true. There is a local case about to come up where one of the "traffic enforcement cameras" took a pic and a ticket was issued. The LAWYER who got the ticket has retained an attorney and he is arguing (and correctly according to the JUDGE that taught the constitutional law class I took back in my college days) that it is invalid as an OFFICER did not witness the infraction.And to be convicted of a misdemeanor than OFFICER must witness it. A camera is NOT an officer. The city is probably gonna lose this one. The statute is what the statute is.

Just a general comment or two. As Mars said ealier, I don't want ANY attention drawn to me. If I can't sleep at night without complaining to the businesses about their policy I'm going to do it by phone and just keep it at "I'll be sure to tell everyone I come in contact with both on the street and in my classes that you don't support the right to self defense and I'll do my best to convince people to spend money with your competitors" and LEAVE IT AT THAT. If they do not have it posted properly and you choose to carry in there then just carry in there and don't make a scene about it. Concealed means concealed. Of course if you have to carry openly then that will cause problems. But you knew that to begin with. Just go about your business and not try to be a crusader. It WON'T help. And carrying where it is posted is a misdemeanor anyways. Under TN state law an officer has to WITNESS the act taking place for you to be charged with a misdemeanor. Felonies don't have to be witnessed by an officer, but misdemeanors do. So unless you carry into the police station it probably won't even be an issue. I'm not suggesting you break the law. I'm not suggesting you carry in places that you KNOW you should not be carrying. I'm suggesting if you CHOOSE to carry in places that are erroniously posted that you keep your mouths shut and keep your gear covered. Don't play school yard games and say "look at me!" "I'm carryng and you can't do anything because your sign is wrong " because all they have to do is change their sign and then you ARE breaking the law by carrying in there.Be careful with what you ask for...... Best to leave them NOT posted properly so if you ever do get CAUGHT they are not properly posted and you have a defense..... Remember the purpose of being armed is to be able to defend yourself and others. Not to act as a conversation starter where we can affect change in the gun policies of local businesses. They respect profit. They don't give a damn about 1 guy who they are gonna view as a loon who complains about their "no gun" signs. That is why Blockbuster video changed their CORPORATE policy in 1998 or so. They respected profit (and were fearing losing it). But complaining at the LOCAL level didn't affect that. I'm not saying Hy is a loon. i'm sayng that is how non gun people look at us when we make a big deal of this stuff...... Hy, I appreciate what you were trying to do. But there are OFTEN unintended consequences. Even the best of intentions can sometimes come back to bite us. That is why I don't make a scene. And also why I carry concealed.

I'm in no way (nor have I ever ) insinuated that starting a gunbattle (especially if you are not IMMEDIATELY involved in the precipitating event) was a good thing. And that is what I pass on to students. Unless it is UNAVOIDABLE (Does this person HAVE TO BE SHOT RIGHT NOW to save a life?) then it is best to just be a good witness.You have NO commission to act as a police officer. You are NOT contractually bound or compelled to act in defense of anyone. In fact you will LIKELY make a situation worse unless you do have extra training and even then nothing is a sure thing. It is hard to condense a 1 hour lecture into a snipet on a forum without losing A LOT of the nuances of the lecture. I'm not some "cowboy". I make sure the students understand there is a difference in truly being in danger of death and just being afraid of the unknown. There is a reason that cops shoot far more people that did not need to be shot than armed civilians do. Cops are PROACTIVELY going LOOKING for bad guys with limited info. That is how Amadou Diallo got killed. He matched a description of a suspected rapist and didn't comply with the plain clothes officers commands (because he didn't speak English very well), looked like he was going for a gun and they reacted as they had been trained to react to an attack..... BUT..the key here is they were LOOKING for someone and expecting a fight....He didn't approach them. He didn't initiate the confrontation. They initiated it....because they were looking for someone who had committed a crime. We as civilians are NOT questioning people suspected of committing crimes! Therefore since we are not actively seeking out people who we suspect to be armed and dangerous, in order to lay hands on them and control them and take them into custody, we are FAR less likely to be involved in a mistaken identity shooting like this. The armed citizen is REACTIVELY responding to an attack in progress that he did not initiate. The armed citizen typically has the "benefit" of the other guy invading his space and trying to kill him. I say benefit because that is not something easily mistaken. You generally have a pretty good clue as to whether dude is trying invade your personal space and kill you or not;). And the citizen is NOT trying to take people into custody. That in and of itself prevents the majority of possibility of shooting folks that don't need to be shot. Again, hard to condense a 1 hour lecture into 2 paragraphs for a forum post.

Agree. But honestly that decision can be simplified to this....."Does this person need to be shot RIGHT NOW to prevent death or grave bodily injury?" or "If I DON'T shoot this person right now will I (or another innocent party) be killed or suffer grave bodily injury?" If the answer is yes then the requirements under the state statute have been met. If the answer is no then then you do not need to shoot them. While it is ALWAYS a good idea to get good professional legal advice , we need to remember that TN is NOT CA, MA, IL,MD,or NJ. The statutes are pretty clear on when use of lethal force is justified. And TN is not exactly a bastion of liberalism where folks are hung out to dry if they defend themselves. On the contrary, there have been cases here where all gun magazine logic would say the shooter should have been indicted and they were not... Jurisdiction is a huge factor. Here in Chattanooga the DA is EXTREMELY pro self defense. And even in liberal areas like Memphis you don't hear about politically motivated persecution of folks who use their gun defensively. We don't live behind the iron curtain guys.....

It really depends on who you take the class from.