Mark@Sea

Dave, I'm just a simple sailor... but first time a shipmate is intentionally screwing around in a manner that endangers others, he gets a reaming. Second time, he's on the beach looking for a job. Too many ways to get hurt, or get someone else hurt out here. A minor infraction is a burned out tail-light. Speeds well over the limit, running red lights and stop signs, etc. - those I'd consider to be endangering the public. Why do LEO's make a habit of it? Because they count on getting away with it. Hey, if they are immune to traffic violations, then whats' wrong with violating a civil right here and there - only a little bit, of course, and 'in the course of duty'. Its' okay, they won't get in trouble for it. After all, they're cops - if they can't bend the law, who can, right? Had a bad day, took it out on a 'suspect'? Well, hell, he's guilty or he wouldn't be a suspect. Besides, it was just this once, not like its' a real big deal. I'd guess most criminals don't start out with big crimes. They start out small.... to be precise, they start out by lying to themselves to excuse their own actions. But as I said, I'm just a sailor. What would I know about professional standards for LEO's - and I am so in favor of giving someone who sees nothing wrong in a little lie here and there a job with huge potential for abuse of fellow citizens.

Such are the wonders of 'progressive liberalism'. Substitute emotion for logic, appearance for result. Mix well with socialism - what has socialism ever really produced? I mean besides lots of corpses?

Mars, I wish it were otherwise, but 'bad cop' stuff is so common these days that even in situations such as the Florida jacka.... err, student who was tazed, the immediate supposition is that the cops went overboard. Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing the video either. Meanwhile, I'd be very careful about accepting character references from KPD. As the offending officer was the only one there at the start, where do you suppose they are getting their information?

Yeah, Luke. Kind of hard to maintain any semblence of respect for cops who effectively are 'above the law' most of the time - and apparently regard it as some sort of job perk. The idea that the permit holder that this thread began about is some sort of cowboy or punk just falls too neatly into the 'if you can't beat the facts, attack the accuser' category. It sounds, in fact, exactly like the kind of noise coming out of St. George - the kid is an attention whore, is 'setting up' cops to look bad, yada yada yada. Sorry to burst the bubble, but these days, cops don't need any outside help, they're doing quite well making themselves look bad, and it extends far beyond traffic violations. Law enforcement has a systemic problem, and they aren't nearly aggressive enough in policing themselves. LEO's can't afford even the perception that 'cops get a free pass' without severely undermining the public trust. LEO's really can't afford an 'Us and Them' mentality, yet they foster it themselves! Increasingly, 'Them' isn't criminals, or drug dealers, it is John and Suzy Public. An 80 year old lady in Atlanta. A teenage kid in Missouri. A young female bartender in Chicago. A law-abiding permit holder in Knoxville. The excuses are getting pretty thin.

http://www.copswritingcops.com/dotm/oct2006/index.html Mars, I try, I really do, but it is getting a little harder every day.

Empty, less than 5 pounds, I think... never really checked. I'd suggest 1/4 inch aircraft-grade (birch) plywood, with oak framing. I actually have the hardware for 2 or three of them, but there isn't much to that, either.

You forgot a few privileges, Rabbi Free speech without a permit? Depends on the venue. Marriage without a permit? Not in my county, how about yours? Geez, can you even have a kid without a birth certificate? I bet we could, in a spirit of friendly poking fun, come up with a half a hundred more. Demonstrating that first, the law is an ass, and second, we have too much time on our hands. My rights don't come and go with the tides, or the legislature, although their recognition by the state may do just that. Someone once said that rights are never granted by government, they are asserted by free men. The question then becomes whether or not there will be a fight on the subject. You've made your point abundantly clear. I don't think you're getting mine, but hey, you don't have to. I'm just going to drop the subject; feel free to take that however you will.

Well, guys, if I'm the only one here that thinks I'm right... It doesn't make me wrong, just lonely. I can live with that.

Rabbi, I see your point - I just don't agree with you. The Tennessee constitution could be clearer on the point, but it still calls it a right. I prefer to start from the supposition that it is a right that is somewhat infringed by regulation, the purpose of which is to attempt to assure that a citizen knows at least bare-bones minimums of both the legal and practical exercise of his right. Doesn't matter if the local law or politico doesn't like Joe Gunny. As long as he isn't a felon, they have no say in the matter. Tennessee is shall issue, not may issue. 2A is, unless you take the unusual view that the framers wanted to enshrine in the constitution the right of the army to have guns, clearly recognising an individual right. That it has been infringed doesn't make it go away - unless you believe the brady bunch morons. I personally refuse to let VPC et. al. frame the debate on those terms, and I'm not going to buy it from anyone else, regardless of their bona fides, legal experiences, moral authority, or cool smilies. I'm just stubborn that way.

Tungsten, I'm confused... Wal-mart allows OC. Yeah, the property owner has a right to prohibit OC, I'm not arguing with that. I have the right to make my purchasing decisions. I'd just like the owner to know why I'm walking out without the four carts of groceries.* * - my wife won't let me grocery shop anymore.... can't imagine why.

Dave, Rabbi - you guys call it a privilege, if you like. I'm gonna continue saying it is a right (recognised also by the TN constitution, IIRC). I'm not going to beat that dead horse. Nor will I advocate that you open carry. If you aren't comfortable with it, then don't do it. I will note that this incident has certainly gotten KPD's attention, which wouldn't have happened had the guy been carrying concealed. Looking forward to the civil suit, if there is one, (and there dam' well should be) to further hammer the point home. Dave, you're right. This guy didn't say he'd make something up, he said he'd "find a reason". I guess you could call that a 'subtle nuance'?

Open carry - my thoughts on this... The commonplace isn't frightening. Teach, reach, and demonstrate that it is entirely possible for a regular guy (or gal, but they mostly carry in their purse or what have you - do we need 'designer' holsters?) to have a loaded firearm on their person without going bugnuts. Every person that asks why you're carrying is an opportunity to make a new gunny. Every nutcase that harangues you in public for being a mad killer or whatever is a public demonstration of the irrationality of the anti-gun argument. Childlike temper tantrums and hate-filled invective is sort of a neon sign, and it doesn't say "see how right I am?". Every onlooker with a 3 year-old will have that familiar feeling of having seen this behaviour before... Every store manager that asks you to leave is forced to watch dollars walk away, and after a while, this is going to cause them to re-evaluate their position. Its' more convenient, more effective, and more fun than walking around with a sign on a stick.

Dave, I'm positive I DO have a right, recognised (not granted) by the second amendment, which same is ignored in far too many places. Not gonna beat that dead horse, but that one we will never agree on. Anyway, the "I'll make something up" comment was caught on video. Fired or not, that guy is never gonna have an easy prosecution again. WTF is KPD thinking, not letting him go?

Hey, if you are handy with tools, they're not tough to build. They are a great way to haul around or store your short guns.

Mugster, I'm somewhat fond of where I'm living now, and consider it pretty low-stress. Now if I can just get to actually spend time there, that'd be nice.... Not gearing up for the Zombie Apocolypse or whatever, and I am definitely not a mall ninja, but it is always nice to have the right tool for the job. For 'crisis intervention', a shotgun, carbine or rifle have it hands down over a pistol. Odds are extremely high that I'd never need it. Odds are high that I will never need the blanket, fire extinguisher, and first aid kit I have in the vehicle. I'll probably get funny looks from y'all for the MRE and the bow saw. Better to have and not need.... because Murphy is a four flushin' bastige. You know the saying, the things you see when you don't have your gun....

Thanks Mugster. That answers my question. It isn't your fault that it wasn't the answer I wanted... I take it that the only citizens allowed a long gun in their vehicle for defense are those who are employed as police... and then presumably only while on-duty. Bummer. Well, at least I don't need to look for one of those 'north end of a south-bound bull' AK pistols. Count the little blessings, right? Heck, once I get home, I don't want to go anywhere anyway. I'm gonna try to push it, and see if I can get away with two months before I go back out.

Dang it... Unloaded? Ammo seperate?

yeah Dave, thats' it, I was wondering if a cut down M-249 with a three-point sling (and a really large trench coat) would qualify as a carry piece... Read back a little bit. I'm trying to figure a legal way to carry a long gun and ammo, or rifle caliber pistol in my vehicle, without falling afoul of various and sundry laws aimed at dumbasses who shine deer....

Gee, I'm from out of state, and I'm in a restaraunt. Half a dozen armed men come in, sit down, and order. No unusual reactions from the proprieter, servers, or other guests. What do I do? Ask my server if thats' legal, or even unusual? Shrug and eat my dinner? Or shriek like a little girl - strike that, a little girl would've handled it better - and call 911? And people wonder why we make fun of Yankees......

Thanks, Rabbi, that breaks it down nicely... Of those choices, the SKS would be my first.

Thanks for clarifying that one, Mike, I feel so much better.... Especially since the .45 Witness I gave her for a wedding gift works pretty well... (Hey, I opened my pistol box and told her to pick one... thankyouthankyou Julie for passing on my match and officers' model 1911's!)

Thats' what I figured... Well, the search is still on for some sort of short nasty I can (legally) keep in the vehicle. Am I gonna have to go the AOW or SBR route? MolonLave, any links or current sources for the Krinkov (much as I dislike the ugly little mutt, if it classes as a pistol...)

Marswolf, quick question here - is a long gun with loaded magazines nearby in your vehicle legal with a carry permit, or are there other (fish and game, for example) regulations barring same? I'm asking because I am a firm believer in 'a pistol is for fighting your way to your long gun'. I just don't want to get nailed for my trunk monkey.

Bwahahahahahahaha...... Think I will forward that link, or some of the juicier exerpts, to my wife... and see if I can get a couple of my guns back. What can you say about a woman who gushes over an actress portraying a rape victim, but who firmly believes that while a man can use a gun, women simply aren't capable? The will to be stupid is a powerful force.