The Secession of Vermont

[Guest Hyaloid]

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In Vermont, nascent secession movement gains traction

By John Curran, Associated Press Writer | June 3, 2007

MONTPELIER, Vt. --At Riverwalk Records, the all-vinyl record store just down the street from the state Capitol, the black "US Out of Vt.!" T-shirts are among the hottest sellers.

But to some people in Vermont, the idea is bigger than a $20 novelty. They want Vermont to secede from the United States -- peacefully, of course.

Disillusioned by what they call an empire about to fall, a small cadre of writers and academics is plotting political strategy and planting the seeds of separatism.

They've published a "Green Mountain Manifesto" subtitled "Why and How Tiny Vermont Might Help Save America From Itself by Seceding from the Union." They hope to put the question before citizens at Town Meeting Day next March, eventually persuading the state Legislature to declare independence, returning Vermont to the status it held from 1777 to 1791.

Whether it's likely is another question.

But the idea has found plenty of sympathetic ears in Vermont, a left-leaning state that said yes to civil unions, no to slavery (before any other) and last year elected a socialist to the U.S. Senate.

About 300 people turned out for a 2005 secession convention in the Statehouse, and plans for a second one are in the works. A poll this year by the University of Vermont's Center for Rural Studies found that 13 percent of those surveyed support secession, up from 8 percent a year before.

"The argument for secession is that the U.S. has become an empire that is essentially ungovernable -- it's too big, it's too corrupt and it no longer serves the needs of its citizens," said Rob Williams, editor of Vermont Commons, a quarterly newspaper dedicated to secession.

"Congress and the executive branch are being run by the multinationals. We have electoral fraud, rampant corporate corruption, a culture of militarism and war. If you care about democracy and self-governance and any kind of representative system, the only constitutional way to preserve what's left of the Republic is to peaceably take apart the empire."

Such movements have a long history. Key West, Fla., staged a mock secession from America in the 1980s. The Town of Killington, Vt., tried to break away and join New Hampshire in 2004, and Hawaii, Alaska, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Texas all have some form of secession organizations today.

The Vermont movement, which is being pushed by several different groups, has been bubbling up for years but has gained new traction in the wake of disenchantment over the Iraq war, rising oil prices and the formation of the pro-secession groups.

Among its architects:

--Thomas Naylor, 70, a retired Duke University economics professor and author who wrote the manifesto and founded Second Vermont Republic, a group pressing for secession, in 2003.

--author Kirkpatrick Sale, 69, founder of the Middlebury Institute, a Cold Spring, N.Y., think tank that hosted a North American Separatist Convention that drew representatives from 16 organizations last fall in Burlington. The group is co-sponsoring another one Oct. 3-4 in Chattanooga, Tenn.

--author Frank Bryan, 65, a professor at the University of Vermont who has championed the cause for years.

Naylor's 112-page manifesto contains precious little explanation of how Vermont would do without federal aid and programs when it comes to security, education and social programs. Some in the movement foresee a Vermont with its own currency and passports, for example, and some form of representative government formed once the secession has taken place.

The cachet of secession would make the new republic a magnet, Bryan said recently during a strategy session with organizers in Naylor's home.

"People would obviously relish coming to the Republic of Vermont, the Switzerland of North America," he said. "Christ, you couldn't keep them away."

But there are plenty of skeptics.

"It doesn't make economic sense, it doesn't make political sense, it doesn't make historical sense. Other than that, it's a good idea," said Paul Gillies, a lawyer and Vermont historian.

While neither the Vermont Constitution nor the U.S. Constitution forbids secession per se, few think it's viable.

"I always thought the Civil War settled that," said Russell Wheeler, a constitutional law expert at the Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C.

"If Vermont had a powerful enough army and said, `We're leaving the union,' and the national government said, `No, you're not,' and they fought a war over it and Vermont won, then you could say Vermont proved the point. But that's not going to happen," he said.

For now, the would-be secessionists are hoping to draw enough support to get the question on Town Meeting Day agendas.

"We're normal human beings," said Williams, 39, a history professor at Champlain College. "But we're serious about this. We want people in Vermont to think about the options going forward. Do you want to stay in an empire that's in deep trouble?"

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Second Vermont Republic: http://www.vermontrepublic.org/

Middlebury Institute: http://middleburyinstitute.org/

Free Vermont.net: http://www.freevermont.net

© Copyright 2007 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

[Guest Hyaloid]

I know VT has some awesome (read zero) limitations on carry (no permit/license, open or concealed), but I am unfamiliar with them otherwise. The article labels the state as "left-leaning" and states that they elected a socialist to the senate.

Well, that ain't cool, but you have to love the brass balls of some of these folks!

[bteague2]

it'll never happen, a group of girl scouts with sowing merit badges and cookies could stop VT from suceding..

[The Rabbi]

Try all of them as traitors, put them up against the wall and machine gun the lot of them.

If they dont like it here, let them go to some peace loving country like N.Korea.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Try all of them as traitors, put them up against the wall and machine gun the lot of them.

If they dont like it here, let them go to some peace loving country like N.Korea.

So, if you EVER feel that the governmment is out of line, you advocate this type of action for dialogue?

Some might say that all gunowners should be lined up and murdered too.

Remember, our country was founded by "rebels", and how the British's heavy-handed tactics worked for them.

Not saying it is at all time for rebellion, but your response seems out of proportion to me.

[The Rabbi]

There's a fundamental difference between "feeling the gov't is out of line" and advocating open rebellion against the US.

As for the Founders, what do you think the British position was? And they weren't wrong either incidentally.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Don't you think the Founders felt the British government was out of line?

And, thus far, there is only talk, not action. That damned 1st Amendment and all... contrary to the beliefs of some, it is just as important as the 2nd.

[saintsfanbrian]

Personally, I think if more like minded individuals would join together and start up groups like this, the government might actually wake up and realize that they are losing their voting base, thus sending them back home to deal with the mess that they have created.

I would love to see the country stand up for their rights again. Solidarity would be awesome. I don't think there are enough people ready to give up their "entitlements" in order to get it back though.

I wonder if we could give all of the hippies the western part of the country and the "good guys" take the eastern part. I would much rather deal with Hurricane's that you can predict or atleast forecast their movements than with earthquakes that you can't.

P.S. I know I live on the New Madrid fault and all that, and if there is a "big" one, Memphis will make New Orleans look like a church bizarre.

[molonlabetn]

There's a fundamental difference between "feeling the gov't is out of line" and advocating open rebellion against the US.

As for the Founders, what do you think the British position was? And they weren't wrong either incidentally.

By their own standards, no the British weren't 'wrong'... But even so, it was unacceptable for the Founders to live under.

The people ultimately have the right to decide how they are governed, and if they so choose, to throw off government which they find oppressive.

It isn't so much about right vs. wrong, as it is defending the sanctity of living on one's own terms.

The battle continues to this day.

[The Rabbi]

Don't you think the Founders felt the British government was out of line?

And, thus far, there is only talk, not action. That damned 1st Amendment and all... contrary to the beliefs of some, it is just as important as the 2nd.

Obviously they did. But, as the Brits pointed out, they had recourse of one form or another. And living under something less than a tyranny means that you aren't entitled to everything you want when you are the minority.

As for the 1st, no one argues they dont have the right to say what they say; I argue they are not right to say what they say.

If people were really fed up they could band together and petition etc, as was done in CA under Proposition 13.

I personally think it is nothing less than scandalous that TN's legislature is arguing how to spend our money taken in excess taxes. Virtually no one thinks that the money ought to be returned to its owner (us) and taxes lowered. Why isn't there outrage on this issue?

[Marswolf]

Regrettably just a fools' errand.

All of my ancestors thought secession was a good idea during the 1860s. They were right but outgunned.

[SkWaShDeM]

Regrettably just a fools' errand.

All of my ancestors thought secession was a good idea during the 1860s. They were right but outgunned.

Mine thought it was the right idea then too. But they weren't outgunned, they were just outnumbered and severely lacking in manufacturing capabilities. Too bad the state constitution prohibits secession now...

[Guest Phantom6]

I don't think we have much to worry about in the way of Vermont or any other state seceeding from the Union. Not one of them with the possible exception of Alaska could survive without SERIOUS and unacceptable disruption to their citizenry's lives with out the support of the Federal govt. You can thank the liberals and Dems for that as they have pushed hard for govt. taking more control of the citizen's every day lives. Infrastructure would fall apart, social programs would be nearly non existant and I would say that the citizens of the state would be rushing to either move thereby reducing the tax base and funding even further or pushing hard to return to the financial backing that the Fed offers. Heck the tariffs alone would drive them nuts. They have no outlet to the sea and shipping granite by air just isn't very feasable.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Obviously they did. But, as the Brits pointed out, they had recourse of one form or another. And living under something less than a tyranny means that you aren't entitled to everything you want when you are the minority.

As for the 1st, no one argues they dont have the right to say what they say; I argue they are not right to say what they say.

If people were really fed up they could band together and petition etc, as was done in CA under Proposition 13.

I personally think it is nothing less than scandalous that TN's legislature is arguing how to spend our money taken in excess taxes. Virtually no one thinks that the money ought to be returned to its owner (us) and taxes lowered. Why isn't there outrage on this issue?

The separatists were, relatively speaking, in the minority. And, not to pick nits, but you didn't argue they are not right to say what they say... you argued that FOR saying what they are saying, they should be lined up and shot. Was it just a knee jerk, or do you really feel that way about people having a public discussion about secession? Additionally, there is a difference between secession and rebellion or revolutions.

I could not agree MORE about the taxes. The people of this country have become so indoctrinated, that they no longer see that money as "theirs". They write it off and never think twice about it in their minds. That's why a graduated income tax that is automatically deducted is such an insidious little device of political power.

I don't think we have much to worry about in the way of Vermont or any other state seceeding from the Union. Not one of them with the possible exception of Alaska could survive without SERIOUS and unacceptable disruption to their citizenry's lives with out the support of the Federal govt. You can thank the liberals and Dems for that as they have pushed hard for govt. taking more control of the citizen's every day lives. Infrastructure would fall apart, social programs would be nearly non existant and I would say that the citizens of the state would be rushing to either move thereby reducing the tax base and funding even further or pushing hard to return to the financial backing that the Fed offers. Heck the tariffs alone would drive them nuts. They have no outlet to the sea and shipping granite by air just isn't very feasable.

I agree. It is a poor idea that is extremely unreasonable at this point in time. I LIKE that people still harbor the spirit of rebellion, though. I also LIKE that in this country, people are not summarily executed for talking about it in public, and even trying to win people over to their cause.

Just to stir the pot:

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

Happy for us, that when we find our constitutions defective and insufficient to secure the happiness of our people, we can assemble with all the coolness of philosophers and set it to rights, while every other nation on earth must have recourse to arms to amend or to restore their constitutions.

A little rebellion now and then is a good thing.

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.

[Branket]

Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson

Completely off topic but does anyone else find this humorous?

[saintsfanbrian]

Completely off topic but does anyone else find this humorous?

Not really.

[saintsfanbrian]

This is a test

Not a very difficult thing to do, if you pay attention when you hit the QUOTE button it reads

"["quote=username;topicnumber"]"

Just replace the =username with whatever you want. I haven't tried the smilies yet.

TEST

Just tried it. Didn't work.

[Marswolf]

Slow day?

[saintsfanbrian]

Just don't feel like working today. Trying to find a new job and taking care of users is a pain today.

[Guest DEIMOS]

Personally, I think if more like minded individuals would join together and start up groups like this, the government might actually wake up and realize that they are losing their voting base, thus sending them back home to deal with the mess that they have created.

This is what I was thinking. Of course, I can see the domestic terrorist label being applied and the socialists trying to use this to implement stricter controls in order to grab more power.

[Guest macho999]

The government sure "woke up" during the militia movement. I think the kind of waking up a lot of us would be hoping for is quite different from the kind of waking up they will actually do.

[The Rabbi]

The government sure "woke up" during the militia movement. I think the kind of waking up a lot of us would be hoping for is quite different from the kind of waking up they will actually do.

That's because there's a right way and a wrong way to go about these things.

1) Gather signatures on petition, put measure on ballot, pass measure=RIGHT.

2) Parade around with guns and look ignorant and threatening=WRONG.

See the difference?

[Guest macho999]

That's because there's a right way and a wrong way to go about these things.

1) Gather signatures on petition, put measure on ballot, pass measure=RIGHT.

2) Parade around with guns and look ignorant and threatening=WRONG.

See the difference?

That's the point I was trying to make.

[fury2neon]

I do think it's funny that they want to secede to form a more socialist government.

Socialism has only killed 100 million people and enslaved billions more let's give it another try!

Why is it that "liberals", "progressives" or whatever the socialist are calling themselves now hate anything that allows free choice. There was a time when liberal meant liberating people from governments control now it seems to mean liberating government form the peoples control.