Had my first negetive encounter with LEO in Hendersonville ..

[Fallguy]

Fallguy,

You are right about the attitude thing, I was just venting a little. I attempt to treat every person I come across with respect and according to how they are acting at the moment. But what I said was still true. They can exercise all of the attitude they want and its not against department policy or law or a violation of a persons civil rights. Should they, no, but in truth its up to them to decide what they can sleep with at night.

I understand venting... I do believe you treat everyone with the level of respect they deserve.

...and I agree an attitude is not against the law, for LEOs or Citizens...lol However..it should be against department policy, if it's not.

In the meantime....stay safe.....

[Guest FroggyOne2]

We deal with criminals on a daily basis who lie to us, and some of them are very adept at it.

These days I see some of these new guys and wonder WTF? Where did they find this f*cking moron at and how did he get a badge and a gun?

Yes indeed, in the 18 years that I have been doing my job, I have heard so many lies from our BG's, that it is often now hard to see when the truth is being told, because of being so skeptical.

I feel that part of the problem with many of the younger ones that come into our line of work, are plagued with "The Me Generation" attitude. Meaning that in their generation, the lack of team unity has been lacking for some time now.

[Guest HexHead]

No, they did not. That had a responsibility to ensure that no laws were being broken and that the OP was who he says he was. If your going to accuse an officer of exceeding his authority, you need to know the law and previous supreme court decisions. And, no, its not my place to provide you with that information. You obviously feel that simple presentation of ID is the be all and end all of everything. I will elaborate further on the ID machine thefts to include that the thieves also stole the materials needed and computers to manufacture proper, real, and with absolutely false information. Things like that makes our job harder. Settle down and realize that this world is full of wolves and sometimes the wolves attempt to wear sheep clothing. Don't be angry with the sheepdogs when they are attempting protecting the flock.

Just like when you hand your license to an officer at a traffic stop, they run your license, I wouldn't object to them running my HCP to make sure it's valid. Once they've assured it's valid and it has my picture on it, that should be the end of it. But asking questions such as social security number and stupid questions like gang affiliation is exceeding their authority. Then they've crossed the line from being polite and professional to just being a PITA.

[Guest LieutenantDan67]

Yes indeed, in the 18 years that I have been doing my job, I have heard so many lies from our BG's, that it is often now hard to see when the truth is being told, because of being so skeptical.

I feel that part of the problem with many of the younger ones that come into our line of work, are plagued with "The Me Generation" attitude. Meaning that in their generation, the lack of team unity has been lacking for some time now.

Not to continue to stray OT, but don't you guys get sick to death of people saying 'It's not mine' when they are caught with something either on their person or in their car?? Or do you just find it amusing and move on?

I admit I love watching "Cops" and I marvel at how they don't get more exasperated LOL.

[Guest KWW67]

KWW67,

Thank you for your years, you seems to be a wise veteran who knows alot about community policing. But, in the last 11 years alot has changed, especially after 9/11. We have to dig a little deeper into things than before, "Saw drunk, arrested same" no longer applies. I personally hate where the trend is going and fear where I think that its headed. I long for the days when I was a rookie, coincidentally, the year you retired. I was taught by some great veterans when I was coming up and was very fortunate. These days I see some of these new guys and wonder WTF? Where did they find this f*cking moron at and how did he get a badge and a gun? But alas, I realize that its different now, officers are getting violently assaulted more and more and the trend is increasing. So these new guys are taught that everyone, and I mean everyone, is looking to kill you. It starts in the academies and continues from there. Trends are changing, back in the 70's the first SWAT teams were formed and were very militaristic in nature with the shoot first, second, third, and last attitude. In the 80's came "Community Policing" which carried through the 90's, a kinder gentler police department. Now it seems to be somewhere in between. Also, you know how the young ones are always trying to prove their selves to the grown folk.

Thank you sir for your kindness and service as well. But let me leave on this on a heart felt response. Staying safe and being tactical is a must. You have to go home. And yes times have changed. I remember before Garner vs TN we could shoot any fleeing felon. In the back, front wherever. Back then a felony included any theft over $250.00. A far cry from today. I agree there are times to be inquisitive and snoopy, and there are times to deal the the situation and go. Experience normally gives you that sense. There has to be a balance. You seem to be level headed. Experience and instinct will tell you if something is not right. But you can not trample liberty with assumptions and possibilities. So what if the guy threw out a joint before you got him stopped. It does not warrant putting him in front of a firing squad. If you find it fine, charge him. If not then you know who you are dealing with next time and you can watch him. Upon the field interview if he is clean cut him loose. You have all his info should something come up later. Just like a pursuit. We use to chase them across the state but now you cant. Because the dangers are too great over a speeding violation. I know the response, well, he may have just committed another crime or the car may be stolen... They make cars everyday and again, we can not live in a world of assumptions. Deal with the facts and arrest them or cut them loose. Some times the police (been there done that) get on a personal mission if "you are not going to get one over on me" kind of things. If you are investigating a murder or serious crime fine. But some of these pissy misdemeanors are better off with a warning and cut them loose. Bottom line... If a guy is not breaking the law, he should be cut loose and left alone once that has been established. And I know you did not mean anything by it but I will clarify one thing. Some things were just as bad or worse back then than they are today. It was not as easy as see a drunk and arrest him. During the 80's and 90's we fought a huge gang problem that trickled in from California. It was not your back yard bunch. Crack cocaine was the norm and back then people did not mind fist fighting a cop at all.. Intel and police work still were required back then too. It just seems it was done in a more civilized and courteous way back them. Officers were killed then just as now. I really don't see that this military type crap today has saved anyone any better than the old days. It has hurt if anything. It has eroded public trust and you work for them. The public. This is not communist China. People have rights and they deserve them. You loose that and you are a nobody. Think about it. Do you believe police departments are in control of their jurisdiction today? They are in control because the people have allowed that control. Officer presence only works so long. If the community wanted to be lawless, they could easily be lawless and the police could only set back and watch it. Say you have a county of 500,000 people and 500 police officers. Who is in control. My point is don't loose public trust because you are not in control. The people are in control. They are only respecting you and are allowing you to do your job because most people are law abiding and understand and respect authority. So when you remove that respect, you remove authority.

[Guest justme]

Luckily it's a small group, but you will get used to a few that will blame you for everything and curse you as the son of Satan because you carry a badge.

I would only call you the son of satan if you acted like you were.

[Punisher84]

I would only call you the son of satan if you acted like you were.

Point was most cops aren't bad guys. You look at anyone in a first responder/civil service job cops, firefighters, paramedics, and even yes, the unpopular security personnel.

They get to deal with crappy people all day long. People with bad attitudes, they get to work out in terrible weather, they do it for not nearly enough pay, and then they still get to deal with their own problems in their life.

It's easy for people to get on here and bitch about how "they weren't fast enough in the ER", or "that cop tramped on my rights", or "Why didn't the fire department get here quicker?" The fact is though unless you have done that job, seen the **** they do, and lived through it you don't really know what you're talking about.

It shouldn't be a free pass and bad cops, or any person who is supposed to help the public, should be fired. I just hate to see people start bashing the cops in a general sense over a story that you are only getting one side of. If you wanna bash somebody go do their job, then tell me how easy it is.

I'm sure every LEO on here could sit you down and show you mugshot after mugshot of nice normal looking folks who are rapists, murderers, drug dealers,etc.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Punisher84

[DaveTN]

I read through all 107 replies in this thread.

I laughed a lot, rolled my eyes a lot, and generally enjoyed reading this.

I was going to reply; but now I don’t have time.

[deerslayer]

Sorry, but it is an indicator. I don't know how long you've been attempting to catch criminals and how many times people have given you false information, but as I've learned and have been taught in several different schools it is a sign of deception. But not solely one that do I determine whether or not someone is being deceptive. Its a Identifier that the person I am dealing with at that time is who they say they are.

I was not implying that LEOs are out to steal my identity, but the less it's broadcast on a radio, written down, or even spoken outloud, the safer my identity will be, whether it's in McDonald's, Best Buy, or at a traffic stop.

I've never caught criminals, but if I'm being completely honest with an LEO who pulled me over and am who I say I am, but refuse to give my SSN, then there's no deception going on, despite what all the schools in the world may dictate. Whatever the case, it would seem that a SSN would be useless as an identifier if the motorist refuses to give it, since the LEO can't use the motorist's answer as an indication of truthfulness. This leads me back to my original question: What would you do/say if a motorist or suspect refused to furnish his/her social security number?

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Not to continue to stray OT, but don't you guys get sick to death of people saying 'It's not mine' when they are caught with something?

Quite frankly.. yes.

[Guest db99wj]

Quite frankly.. yes.

I only had a couple.

[Guest justme]

Point was most cops aren't bad guys. You look at anyone in a first responder/civil service job cops, firefighters, paramedics, and even yes, the unpopular security personnel.

point is--you don't know which are and which aren't the BGs now do you? Example--I'll stand you up two individuals, both dressed similarly--both men are similar looking in stature, and height, weight, and so on...point out to me the one who is the "good guy" and point out to me the one who would do you in, beat you, and so on...The point is--they all dress alike, they all for the most part act alike, and you really just don't know the sheep from the wolves who are dressed like sheep until you start mingling with them...

They get to deal with crappy people all day long. People with bad attitudes, they get to work out in terrible weather, they do it for not nearly enough pay, and then they still get to deal with their own problems in their life.

I deal with crappy people all day long, people with bad attitudes, I get out and go to work in terrible weather, I drive in snow, I drive in the pouring rain, and I certainly don't get paid enuogh to deal with my job but I still deal with my own problems in my life--and your point in this is what?

It's easy for people to get on here and bitch about how "they weren't fast enough in the ER", or "that cop tramped on my rights", or "Why didn't the fire department get here quicker?" The fact is though unless you have done that job, seen the **** they do, and lived through it you don't really know what you're talking about.

Yes it is each to bitch on here. Bitching however isn't bitching if it is the truth. If the police trample on your rights--if they search you without your consent in the absence of PC then they are bad cops. If they get mad at you because you refuse consent or maybe just won't take their abuse and decide to "I'm gonna screw you over" like the Dallas PD officer recently told a man in Texas on his way to see his dying mother-in-law, then they are bad cops. If they try to use the fact that you are carrying a gun to justify verbal abuse, or an unwarranted "lecture" just because you may be carrying in a way that "might make them uncomfortable" and therefore because you chose to carry openly they intend on "setting you straight" when the stop is unwarranted, and try to use the stop as a reason to do a Terry Stop, then they are bad cops. If they think that just because they wear a badge and a gun that they can treat the people any way they choose to and all you can do is stand by and take their verbal and sometimes physical abuse--they are bad cops. If they violate your Constitutional rights they are bad cops. I agree-complaining just to complain is wrong. But standing by and allowing the trampling of your rights is also wrong. A badge and a gun isn't a free pass to treat the people any way you can. If law enforcement wants to be respected--respect the people, respect the rights of the people, and give the people something worth supporting.

If they don't know the laws they are supposed to enforce, then they should either (A) learn them and do so quickly or ( find another line of work.

It shouldn't be a free pass and bad cops, or any person who is supposed to help the public, should be fired. I just hate to see people start bashing the cops in a general sense over a story that you are only getting one side of. If you wanna bash somebody go do their job, then tell me how easy it is.

If law enforcement wants to clean up its collective image then I would suggest that they as a group stop hiding the bad cops who are operating within their midst. If a law enforcement officer knows that a member of your agency is mistreating the public--even once, then expose that person. The bad apples as everyone calls them are making it impossible to trust law enforcement as a whole. It is the collective reputation of LE at stake. If they care about how the public sees them--clean up the bad apples within their midst, and expose them.

I'm sure every LEO on here could sit you down and show you mugshot after mugshot of nice normal looking folks who are rapists, murderers, drug dealers,etc.

And I could dig you up stories from the internet news archives of the various newspapers from around the country of LE personnel--nice normal looking people who were using their authority to commit crimes including violations of civil rights, and other crimes..NOPD officers were looting after Katrina--those video clips of the officers looting was aired on CNN by the way...made nice coverage, NOPD officers killing an unarmed man on a bridge after Katrina-again on CNN, a BART officer in Alameda County California shooting an unarmed man in the back, NOPD kicking in doors and confiscating firearms....again this tit for tat get us no where, because all this shows is the criminal element is also alive and well within law enforcement--it is just that they seem that they are never exposed or investigated until the damage is already done, or until the story makes the news and the department has no other choice but to investigate...

The onus of responsibility for cleaning up their act is on LE.

[Guest JLowe]

KWW67,

I did not mean to trivialize with the old "saw drunk arrested same" joke. I just know that in my short time things have changed greatly. I work with guys who remember Garner and joke to this day of how they miss it. I work Criminal Interdiction with a state wide task force. In the 10-12 minutes it take for a traffic stop, I am supposed to ascertain if they are carrying large amounts of narcotics, illegal explosives, so on and so forth. I have went through over 120 hours of this type of training, so thats why I look further into things. We have recovered a large amount of illegal narcotics, weapons, money, illegal aliens, credit cards, IDs, and more. Officers are taught today to look further, some may not know exactly when to look further and when to take things at face value, but its a learned process that comes with experience. Of course, some never learn, its how the world turns.

Justme,

Its obvious you have issues with LEOs. I don't know why, only that you seem to think that we are all, cut from the same cloth. I don't know if you present this attitude when dealing with us in person, or are a "Internet Commando" so to speak. I would advise that when dealing with LEOs in public, no matter what their attitude might be, be the bigger man and take the high road. It will prove you the better person. Because no matter how in the right you may be, on the side of the road or out in public, you are not going to win that battle. Remember, it does not take much to be Disorderly and I don't want you to let you personal pride put you in a non-winning situation. Its better to hold thy tongue and get them back through the proper channels. I have no love for officers who violate the law and feel that they should be treated far worse than the average citizen for violating those laws and the trust of those citizens. Because not only do they make my job much harder, they ruin our honorable professions reputation and make us all look the same in the eyes of people like you. BTW, I can still state that the officers did not exceed their authority and that does come from the Supreme Court. Whether or not they were right or wrong, they were still within their legal bounds.

Deerslayer,

I apologize for not answering the question to your satisfaction. I was going to answer you with several scenarios, but will keep it short and simple. If you do not wish to provide the information I request, I will take the time to look it up. If I find that you are being evasive, I will simply start asking more questions in a nice and polite manner. If I find that you are not being evasive, I care less that your an assh*le, its not against the law. Of course, I can be an assh*le too and instead of writing a warning, turn it into a real citation. Now, that being said, I don't respond that way, but there are LEOs out there that do. Remember, LEOs are people to and capable of feelings. I know, I know that seems impossible, but they get their feelings hurt as well, especially the young ones.

Hexhead,

No, they are not exceeding their authority. They are doing what they are trained to do, which is catch criminals. It may seem like a retarded question if I ask you if you have any dead bodies in your vehicle, but its establishing a truthfulness base line. Those outrageous questions help us to determine if a person we have never met may be a criminal etc... or not. In the 10-12 minutes that the average officer makes contact with a person, we need to speed up the process of finding out if a person is truthful or not. I know that most officer will never take the time to explain why those types of questions are asked, so I hope that it helps you to understand. There is actually a method to our madness.

Everybody always bitches about the Sheepdogs, until the wolves show up.

[DaveTN]

If they don't know the laws they are supposed to enforce, then they should either (A) learn them and do so quickly or ( find another line of work.

If law enforcement wants to clean up its collective image then I would suggest that they as a group stop hiding the bad cops who are operating within their midst.

The onus of responsibility for cleaning up their act is on LE.

As long as LEO’s are doing their job there are going to be people that are not happy with them. The problem usually is not that the cop doesn’t know the law, but that the citizen doesn’t know they law. The fact that you don’t agree with how a cop is searching your vehicle doesn’t make him a bad cop. There will be no doubt in your mind what a bad cop is if you truly run into one.

You always have recourse. If you think a cop has done something wrong, don’t whine and cry about it here; do something about it. Is it dangerous? Certainly it is, but the cops can’t do anything without a complainant. Several of us here have tried to explain to people how to handle the situation if they run into a bad cop.

We will never be without being able to go to Google news and finding some story about an abusive cop. They are human and they make mistakes.

The fact that someone has made the cut when most can’t earns them my respect. They will have that respect unless they do something to lose it.

And what’s with having a communist flag as an avatar? That looks ignorant and disrespectful to me, but be glad that you are in a country where that is not illegal.

[DaveTN]

This leads me back to my original question: What would you do/say if a motorist or suspect refused to furnish his/her social security number?

Unless I was just engaging someone in conversation to see how they act (like deciding if I was going to pursue a DUI or something) I can’t think of any reason to ask it; so I would have just continued on.

I guess if someone with a warrant had the same name and DOB as you, a SS or DL number could come into play; but it’s doubtful.

There have been a lot of laws passed recently about when you must supply your SS number. So I would guess that if you aren’t applying for a job at the Police Department you aren’t required to give it. (But I don’t know that for sure)

[Guest Tn.Mitch]

The law allows for OC, so if you wanna do it, then go and do it. But don't complain when it causes some unwanted attention.

I stop several days a week in a Weigles store near the county jail. There are Knox deputies in there all the time. They never speak to me because they do not know I am armed. I will bet dollars to a donut that if I OC'd in that store I would have had many unwanted interactions with the man.

I figure the less interaction I have with the man the better off I am. Cops are not being my friend out there. They are looking for a reason to arrest me. I choose not to give them reason to look twice at me.

And another thing. Driving by the county lock up twice daily is a good reminder to stay on the straight and narrow.

Sound like some good solid advice for us all my brother,and I thank you for it,I didnt have a problem for being detained to show my permit,it was th way it was done and why ,bored park police,IMO,and the gang questions,by some Rookie,whom, I have underware older than he is,SS# and my phone #Im wondering if he wants to open a Credit card in my name or he Thinks im cute enough tro call later for a date.I dont mind them doing there jobs,I treated them with respect,I expect the same,thats the way I was rasied and the way I see it.I let it go after I cooled off that was on a Friday,When Monday came I let it go,I dont want to go to war with the Hendersonville police department ,I believe that most LEOS ar pros and treat people right,They did not put hands on me, take my weapon,slam me to the ground,so we will let it pass into the night,but believe me I do kniow my rights, and over my allmost 53 years am no stranger to the system,of how it all works,lets just say.....Live and let live,this all happened on a friday afternoom,The next day my brother in law ,who also lives in Hendersonville,who loved Guns and Leather,and hes the one that got me into shooting and guns,suddenly died,the next day right in front of my eyes in Hendersonville Hospitial,blood clot to the lung,it all happened in less than a hour,I had been there in the ER less than 10 minuites before he passed,and Id apreacate any prayers from you guys and gals for my Sister and our family,she has 2 sons1,just 17 the other 21.Thank you for your prayers.....Ive lost a good shooting buddy and a good friend.Times like these,being hasseled by the cops for a HCP isnt very important. Edited April 2, 2009 by Tn.Mitch

[GLOCKMEISTER]

AGREED... PRAYERS SAID, CONDOLENCES MADE.... MAY HE REST IN PEACE AND MAY GOD BLESS HIS/YOUR FAMILY.

[Guest kcnative]

Wow that's horrible Tn.Mitch...sorry to hear that.

[Fallguy]

Prayers for your family TNMitch

[Guest db99wj]

Prayers to you and your family TNMitch

[Guest LieutenantDan67]

Prayers and condolences, TNMitch.

[Guest Ggun]

Sorry for your loss, TNMitch.

[Guest justme]

As long as LEO’s are doing their job there are going to be people that are not happy with them. The problem usually is not that the cop doesn’t know the law, but that the citizen doesn’t know they law. The fact that you don’t agree with how a cop is searching your vehicle doesn’t make him a bad cop. There will be no doubt in your mind what a bad cop is if you truly run into one.

Most of the time the police really don't know the law. You can doubt that if you choose to--your right to do so. As for searching--if they violate your rights they are bad cops.

You always have recourse. If you think a cop has done something wrong, don’t whine and cry about it here; do something about it. Is it dangerous? Certainly it is, but the cops can’t do anything without a complainant. Several of us here have tried to explain to people how to handle the situation if they run into a bad cop.

Have not seen me whining or crying. I merely state facts that are already clearly evident. I am well aware of how to handle a run in with a bad cop..that is why I carry an audio recorder---for my protection. A bad cop who legitimately violates your rights should have a date with federal court to answer a civil rights lawsuit, as well as hopefully having that officer investigated by the FBI. Best advice for everyone--don't say anything that you won't be able to articulate later should it get the officer hauled into court.

We will never be without being able to go to Google news and finding some story about an abusive cop. They are human and they make mistakes.

Indeed they do. They are indeed human. It is just that their mistakes cost people their freedom, lives, rights, money and property. And sometimes their "mistakes just aren't honest mistakes, especially if they choose to cover up for each other later to try and knowingly avoid facing the consequences for their actions.

The fact that someone has made the cut when most can’t earns them my respect. They will have that respect unless they do something to lose it.

Respect goes both ways--you want it, then show it. The ONLY people I have ever respected without expecting it in return are my parents, and my family. Beyond that--you want respect, then show me the same respect that you want to be showed--that is not too much to ask of anyone.

And what’s with having a communist flag as an avatar? That looks ignorant and disrespectful to me, but be glad that you are in a country where that is not illegal.

Good question! The Communist flag--and there are many "communist flags", mine just happens to be the old USSR flag, is a representation of everything this country now stands for--the bail outs, the worry about foreign nations first and America last, propping up a drug dealing government in Afghanistan, giving away our tax money to our enemies by the boat loads, allowing our economy to be destroyed, the government taking over industries now as well, the giving out huge sums to financial industries while the very banks and financial institutions themselves give their CEOs huge severance packages and bonuses and then their companies come back to the trough like a group of overly fat hogs waiting for the slop to be dumped in, and thus we allow them to live off of the backs of the American people like some blood sucking leech, while our own people are put out on the streets.

More importantly, having political leaders in Washington who are more interested in restricting our Constitutional rights in order to "help out poor Mexico", and a Treasury Sec. who came out on the news last week and said that he thinks it might just be a good idea to replace the dollar as the currency of business, just like the Chinese said, while this government puts us into an even deeper debt, and what is their answer? WHY we'll just borrow more money and borrow our way out of debt and print more money to boot--thus deflating the value of the dollar even more...the sheer brilliance of this government is just astounding.

And for one more..a story I saw in the news yesterday talked of how the President FIRED the head of General Motors...so he is firing CEOs now as well? And you ask what I mean with my flag?

Short answer...The flag of the USSR is now starting to represent everything this government stands for as a whole...although I could think of a few other flags that could represent it as well, I chose the USSR so that is why I have it for my avatar...

Edited April 2, 2009 by justme

[Guest justme]

I am very sorry for your loss TnMitch...wish you well.

[strickj]

justme,your facts,and way of thinking are about as good as kwik****!

Maybe you just like confrontations .Maybe you just like being opposite of others.Maybe you're just looking for problem with cops.

Whatever it is.its screwed.