The MAGNIFICIENT speech of former Vice-Pres. Dick Cheney

[Guest justme]

That is a huge leap. I don't know why you keep bringing up the constitution when it does not apply to these folks.

it isn't as big a leap as you might like to think. It is already happening. But you keep on comforting yourself, and telling yourself it is ok to torture, and that your government would NEVER do anything like that to you, and that your government only has your best interests at heart--because it obviously makes you feel "safer" to think it...

the death knell is ringing on our Constitutional rights--and people like you are leading the charge.

Edited May 26, 2009 by justme

[Daniel]

does not matter--he was still on active duty at the time he allegedly committed the crimes in Iraq--and it was federal court.

PFC Green was in my old Regiment. He was an active duty Infantryman and was discharged before his crimes came to light. He was convicted by a federal court and I hope is given the death penalty. Im against it in most cases but this man should receive it.

[Magiccarpetrides]

PFC Green was in my old Regiment. He was an active duty Infantryman and was discharged before his crimes came to light. He was convicted by a federal court and I hope is given the death penalty. Im against it in most cases but this man should receive it.

That sick bastard got life and should have gotten death. Daniel is right as to why he wasnt put under a military tribunal. Justme as soon as you hinted that you were one of those 911 conspiracy theory morons I skipped over about everything else you posted. People like you make me sick.

[Guest justme]

That sick bastard got life and should have gotten death. Daniel is right as to why he wasnt put under a military tribunal. Justme as soon as you hinted that you were one of those 911 conspiracy theory morons I skipped over about everything else you posted. People like you make me sick.

I said I have my opinion on it--and I do. Out of respect for everyone else I did not say what it was.

You are entitled to your opinion just as much as I am mine--whether you like or dislike it is of little relevance to me.

I at least was kind enough not to call people names--obviously I cannot be extended the same courtesy simply because my opinion differs from the politically correct accepted mainstream line of thought. I refuse to go into what I believe on 9-11.

[timcalhoun]

it isn't as big a leap as you might like to think. It is already happening. But you keep on comforting yourself, and telling yourself it is ok to torture, and that your government would NEVER do anything like that to you, and that your government only has your best interests at heart--because it obviously makes you feel "safer" to think it...

the death knell is ringing on our Constitutional rights--and people like you are leading the charge.

I let my wife read that and we are both cracking up:rofl: We are cracking up because if you really new me you would realize how insane that statement is.

It is obvious to me now that you have a habit of largely creating reality that only exist in your own mind. I would never in a million years think that our government would never do it to me. I never have thought that the government has our best interest at heart. I am a believer of the words of Jefferson and more that any other founding father agree with him. But somehow you created this image of me in your own mind.

If however you do want to worry about the constitution you should start to worry about the new administration.

[Guest caveo]

I am a believer of the words of Jefferson and more that any other founding father agree with him.

It is more dangerous that even a guilty person should be punished without the forms of law than that he should escape.

- Thomas Jefferson

Seems Jefferson felt like it was important that the law be followed when dealing with the guilty. Both International law and our own laws say that torture is illegal.

Don't take that the wrong way. I don't have an ounce of sympathy for them and believe they deserved worse than they got. The problem is we have created laws against it and when we let the Federal Government pick and choose which laws to follow and when, we start down a very slippery slope.

The trouble is there is no easy answer. I have no doubt that they learned useful things that probably saved lives, but at what cost?

As a side note:

"...In 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk."Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor"

--------------------------------------------

Defendant: Asano, Yukio

Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan

Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.

Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward

Verdict: 15 years CHL

Yokohama Reviews - Asano

[timcalhoun]

It is more dangerous that even a guilty person should be punished without the forms of law than that he should escape.

- Thomas Jefferson

Seems Jefferson felt like it was important that the law be followed when dealing with the guilty. Both International law and our own laws say that torture is illegal.

Don't take that the wrong way. I don't have an ounce of sympathy for them and believe they deserved worse than they got. The problem is we have created laws against it and when we let the Federal Government pick and choose which laws to follow and when, we start down a very slippery slope.

The trouble is there is no easy answer. I have no doubt that they learned useful things that probably saved lives, but at what cost?

As a side note:

"...In 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk."Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor"

--------------------------------------------

Defendant: Asano, Yukio

Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan

Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.

Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward

Verdict: 15 years CHL

Yokohama Reviews - Asano

Well, I'm not going to post here again... this will be my last on this subject for I'm tired of beating this dead horse.

I agree totally with the Jefferson quote. My point is that no law was broken in this case. They do not fall under the GC or our constitution. The CIA carried out the interrogations.

But we break laws everyday when the situation calls for it. If my son was injured and needed to go the hospital you can bet I will be breaking the speed limit. If someone was in our school shooting kids, you can bet I will grab my M4 and go in there breaking that law and I can go on and on. My point is and will remain that while the US has always signed the GC and agrees with it's principles and strives to operate within them, we and no other country in the GC have obeyed the rules 100% of the time, and never will. Common sense in some cases will dictate otherwise. But this case does not apply to those laws anyway.

Edited May 27, 2009 by timcalhoun

[Guest justme]

The CIA carried out the interrogations.

what part of Title 18 Sec 2340A does NOT apply to the CIA--considering that even the vaunted CIA are AMERICAN citizens, subject to AMERICAN LAW and the foundation of American law--called the CONSTITUTION?

Let me print it again:

Title 18 Sec. 2340A

(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life. ( Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if— (1)the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or

(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.

© Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.

Now please, point out to me what section of this law criminalizing torture does NOT apply to the vaunted and special CIA...

My point is and will remain that while the US has always signed the GC and agrees with it's principles and strives to operate within them, we and no other country in the GC have obeyed the rules 100% of the time, and never will. Common sense in some cases will dictate otherwise. But this case does not apply to those laws anyway.

"Agreeing with principles" means absolutely NOTHING--it is word games. Then since you want to justify it--you should have no complaints whatsoever the next time an American is kidnapped and tortured--you should not bewail the "atrocity"--because you are JUSTIFYING the EXACT same kind of conduct...except in our case it is OK to torture someone, hold them, beat them and threaten to kill them, all in the name of some false sense of "national security"--I'm sorry, but if that is your justification--we're no better than the enemy. "National security" is now used to approve of a whole host of evils...but it must be OK as long as it helps "national security"....

TORTURE IS WRONG, it is morally wrong, it is legally wrong--it is just WRONG and brings shame on this country, on it's people and stains our Constitution.

Edited May 28, 2009 by justme

[Guest justme]

It is more dangerous that even a guilty person should be punished without the forms of law than that he should escape.

- Thomas Jefferson

Seems Jefferson felt like it was important that the law be followed when dealing with the guilty. Both International law and our own laws say that torture is illegal.

I could not care less about international law...what applies to this country is American law. And American law as you know strictly forbids and criminalizes torture--as you have stated.

Don't take that the wrong way. I don't have an ounce of sympathy for them and believe they deserved worse than they got.

Then we should not have given Bin laden a month to escape. They should have dropped a couple nuclear bombs on Afghanistan and the Taliban instead of playing games with them like we have for 8 years. This useless war in Afghanistan is a farce--it is a joke. We are chasing a ghost. Bin laden is almost certainly dead, and a French intelligence assessment released some time ago stated that Bin laden most likely died from typhoid in Pakistan sometime in 2006--and others seem to also think he is dead--but we keep chasing a ghost as justification to prolong a war and uphold a drug dealing little country in the middle of nowhere--and for what? So the munitions makers, and the reconstruction firms like Haliburton and others can make a fortune off of the misery and suffering of others?

The problem is we have created laws against it and when we let the Federal Government pick and choose which laws to follow and when, we start down a very slippery slope.

The government should be held accountable.

The officials who approve/approved of allowing torture, those who carried it out, those who gave the orders should all be thrown into jail.

The trouble is there is no easy answer. I have no doubt that they learned useful things that probably saved lives, but at what cost?

I do have doubt that what they learned was useful--obviously the intelligence on Iraq and their so-called WMDs was flawed--so why should we have any faith in anything else they claimed to learn....the government has one standing rule--when in doubt LIE...we have no proof that anything they "learned" was useful in any way, shape, form or fashion--all you have is their word, and a pile of dung is worth more than the word of a politician.

torture stains our very foundation as a nation.

As a side note:

"...In 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk."Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor"

and this is the fate that should befall all of those responsible for torture--from the top down--and I mean everyone--every single person who had a hand in it, from the CIA and any military who was involved all the way up the ladder to the godless politicians who sit in D.C who approved it.

[Paletiger13]

That sick bastard got life and should have gotten death. Daniel is right as to why he wasnt put under a military tribunal. Justme as soon as you hinted that you were one of those 911 conspiracy theory morons I skipped over about everything else you posted. People like you make me sick.

Magic, I must make you sick also. I think there is more to it than a blind man can see!!!

[timcalhoun]

what part of Title 18 Sec 2340A does NOT apply to the CIA--considering that even the vaunted CIA are AMERICAN citizens, subject to AMERICAN LAW and the foundation of American law--called the CONSTITUTION?

Really, well let me ask you this since you must have the most brilliant legal mind far beyond actual lawyers.

Do you really believe that the (actual most brilliant) legal minds in DC that went though all this for Bush before briefing congress years ago are not aware of title 18? And furthermore do you really believe that congress witch is composed of mostly lawyers are not aware of title 18? Yet somehow you the great savior of our constitution and legal scholar who figured out how to google is aware of something they are not.

[Guest justme]

Really, well let me ask you this since you must have the most brilliant legal mind far beyond actual lawyers.

Do you really believe that the (actual most brilliant) legal minds in DC that went though all this for Bush before briefing congress years ago are not aware of title 18? And furthermore do you really believe that congress witch is composed of mostly lawyers are not aware of title 18? Yet somehow you the great savior of our constitution and legal scholar who figured out how to google is aware of something they are not.

I ask you again--since it is YOU who keeps saying Title 18 does not apply--to please point out to me which section exactly does NOT apply to Americans involved in torture?

I never claimed to be a legal scholar--but at least I can take the time to read. And FYI there is a LOT of debate now about whether the former Bush officials should be on trial for their crimes...so it isn't just me. And politicians can exempt themselves from laws that if you or I broke--we would be placed under the prison...but we can't hold our "great leaders" to the same standards that we would be expected to abide by--can we????

Edited May 28, 2009 by justme

[Paletiger13]

Hey people, let's not forget what brought all of us to TGO in the first place. We all are supporters of the Constitution in some form or another. I wouldn't want some silly thread making us hate each other. We are all peons compared to politicians LOL.

[Guest unreconstructed1]

I ask you again--since it is YOU who keeps saying Title 18 does not apply--to please point out to me which section exactly does NOT apply to Americans involved in torture?

the part that excludes the FED.gov from being held accountable for their tresspasses against the constitution, the citizenry, and the world....

[Guest justme]

the part that excludes the FED.gov from being held accountable for their tresspasses against the constitution, the citizenry, and the world....

and sadly enough--that is whatever part the FED says....but then again FED does whatever it wants...

[Guest justme]

Hey people, let's not forget what brought all of us to TGO in the first place. We all are supporters of the Constitution in some form or another. I wouldn't want some silly thread making us hate each other. We are all peons compared to politicians LOL.

I am a Constitutionalist. I'm not looking to be divisive, or cause problems or create anger.. I just see the world as it is---and I firmly think that our "leaders" and all government agents on every level--local, state and federal should be held to the same EXACT same laws and standards as us normal, everyday serfs, and should be subjected to the exact same penalties as we would be.

In the eyes of the government, we are no better than a serf.

[Guest unreconstructed1]

I am a Constitutionalist.

sadly, we are an ever dying breed.

[Guest justme]

sadly, we are an ever dying breed.

it is sad isn't it.

now believing in the Constitution can get you labeled a terrorist or a subversive...the MIAC report is a fine example.

Edited May 28, 2009 by justme

[wjh2657]

For all of those who want Cheney to be president, catch his speech today endorsing gay marriages. This was one of the key issues that everybody felt Obama should be hung for. Now Mr. Republican comes out in favor of them! (I am not stating a position on gay (civil) marriages, but simply stating that it was of the key points of Mr. Cheny and his cohorts against the Dems during the campaign.)

I am a Libertarian and I'll be darned if I can tell the players without a program!

Edited June 4, 2009 by wjh2657