Shelby Co. TFA meeting: Let's beat up on the OC guy!

[JayC]

Once the LEO asks for the HCP and requests that the HCP holder disarm then the validity of the HCP and the validity of the disarming becomes investigatory.

I'm sorry but that is incorrect. You have neither RAS or PC to form an investigation of the HCP or the weapon during the process of a traffic stop. In order to claim so you would need some RAS or PC that the permit or the weapon was involved in a crime or about to be involved in a crime, neither of which would be the case in 99.9% of cases.

The law allows for you to remove the weapon from a HCP holder only for 'safety' reasons not for investigative reasons, and doing an investigation under the false pretense of safety is likely a violation of state law and/or federal law.

I'm not saying you couldn't get away with it, but if you stopped the wrong HCP holder it will probably cause a huge hassle very quickly.

Also keep in mind that in all likelihood if a permit holder doesn't tell you up front they have a permit or are armed, you won't know about it until the drivers license is run, then you're going to have a hard time explaining why you needed to disarm the person for your safety instead of just handing them the ticket and releasing them from the scene.

[deerslayer]

It is almost human nature to slip into a near condition white when carrying concealed.

Maybe for you.

[Guest TN_Mike]

Maybe for you.

Actually, it isn't for me and it isn't BS either. I remember reading an article that came to the same conclusion. And from my personal observations I have confirmed the same thing.

Maybe you do not slip into white when CC'ing, but I assure you, many, many HCP holders who CC do just that.

[Guest marionandjohn]

Well I dont have the time to read the entire post here, there are quite a few pages and I have to go to Wo**. From the first couple pages it seems like while you dont disagree with OC there are quite a few people that pefer to CC due to tactics or comotion. IM AM NOT TRYING TO START AN AGRUMENT! I am simply writing what i have read. There is a passage on another website forum well worth the read I would highly suggest reading it for anyone who has not OC it sold me on OC (i was leaning towards it already) But as far as the meeting I've never been seeing as how I live in GA but I dont think I would wont to attend a meeting that has a "scum bag lawyer" that doesn't know the law speaking and members bashing for how ever you carry.

I prolly would have reacted the same way and you have my condolences even though I dont know you.

The Open Carry Argument

in case the link for the OC passage dont work its under the Open carry forum on USACARRY.com titles open carry argument. Again I would highly highly recommend what he has wrote and I agree with him 100%

[Guest crotalus01]

Sometimes the irony of OC vs CC is kind of amusing...Have you ever noticed that when you go to a range or gunshop, every single employee is OCing, yet these people seem to make up a large part of the really vocal "OC gives away your tactical advantage" or "OC makes you a target" arguments?

[deerslayer]

Sometimes the irony of OC vs CC is kind of amusing...Have you ever noticed that when you go to a range or gunshop, every single employee is OCing, yet these people seem to make up a large part of the really vocal "OC gives away your tactical advantage" or "OC makes you a target" arguments?

Hmmm...I don't think there's any "tactical advantage" to lose in a gun shop. Would-be robbers probably know there may be guns there...

Besides, what's the liklihood of becoming a target inside a gun shop full of rednecks and right-wingers? Sounds like one of the safer places to be.

[deerslayer]

Again I would highly highly recommend what he has wrote and I agree with him 100%

Carrying a concealed firearm presents to a criminal that I am unarmed.

No, it simply means I am not obviously armed. As many carry permits as there are issued today, and with all the press they get, some criminals doubtlessly are concerned with concealed weapons.

Every study I’ve ever read, not most but every study, says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim.

Right. Cops never get attacked. Gun cabinets are such scary targets for burglars.

By making it clear and obvious that I am armed, that I have teeth, I tip the risk scale to the point that the criminal’s gains are far outweighed by the risk.

I bet I could use my bare hands to disarm and neutralize the majority of Ocers that I have seen in public. I wish some of them would at least lose the suspenders and wipe the chili out of their ZZ-Top beards. They are projecting the image of the guns-and-religion rednecks that Obama wants everyone to believe in.

The point of this flawed article seems to imply that CC is useless. If OC is so great, and makes it so obvious that you are not one to be trifled with, why do OCers scoff at shoot-me-first vests, as OCers call them? Are they not accomplishing the same thing?

Edited September 16, 2009 by deerslayer

[Guest c.a.s.]

Deerslayer, you would lose that bet, and with some "tragic" consequences.

Wait, so all OCers look like rednecks? That's news to me.

[macville]

Right. Cops never get attacked. Gun cabinets are such scary targets for burglars.

This is really an unfair statement because OC'ing and being a cop are two entirely different things. First, cops do get attacked, but often after they stop someone or come into a situation. There's not a ton of situations I can think of where the LEO was targeted first when the robber walked into a store. Normally, as I said above, the cop comes INTO the situation, or is trying to stop someone.

Second, wearing a uniform is a much bigger sign that you are packing heat than just open carrying. I have been around people OC'ing that it took them 5 mins to even notice that I had a gun on my side. Put that into a store with racks/people/other items in the way and there is a VERY good chance that that the BG would never know you had a firearm. Add into the situation that BG's tend to be more stupid than smart. Plus, inject adrenalin into the situation and the BG tends to be more focused on the goal "get money" than most of what's happening around them.

Matthew

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I have said it before and I will say it again, when I open carry, my situational awareness is much better than ANYONE I know who conceals when they carry. I would bet large sums of money that it is the case with most on this site as well. It is almost human nature to slip into a near condition white when carrying concealed.

If you think the career criminals are not making you, no matter how well you think you are concealing it, you are the fool. They are very good, in fact they are usually much better at spotting a CC'er than most cops are.

If you don't like the way I carry, tough. I don't like the way that most concealed carriers act like the fact that they have a gun on is something to be ashamed of.

Im not ashamed of it at all. I just dont give up my element of surprise. I also feel theres no need in anyone knowing my business. I also dont have a complex and feel I should wear a gun to make myself seem more important and someone/something im not.

I have had to carry a gun on my person for the better part of 20 years. I have attended some of the, if not the best, tactical schools in the world. I have also dealt with career criminals my whole adult life. So in short heres no way you can accurately gauge my situational awareness or tell me criminals can tell if im carrying or not.

Most if not all professionals I know would agree.

[Guest crotalus01]

I do not think most anyone who chooses to conceal does so out of shame. I do definitely understand that some people who choose to OC are simply attention whore yahoos, but that doesnt mean all who OC are. And some who conceal are yahoos as well, they are just not exposed as such until they shoot someone unjustifiably (rare but it happens). I simply do not understand why a CCer would be so down on me for OCing when I am simply doing what works for me, just as they are by CCing.

If everyone is honest about the facts, both methods have merits and drawbacks regardless of your opinion one way or the other...

[deerslayer]

Deerslayer, you would lose that bet, and with some "tragic" consequences.

Wait, so all OCers look like rednecks? That's news to me.

Maybe, maybe not. How do you know I would lose? I said the majority of OCers I have seen in public. How many of the same ones have you seen? It may not be as hard as you think for a thug to sneak up on an old, overweight OCer and overtake him/her.

As for the redneck comment, I did not generalize all OCers, only a portion of those I have personally observed in public. Next time, read all of the post before you respond.

[deerslayer]

This is really an unfair statement because OC'ing and being a cop are two entirely different things. First, cops do get attacked, but often after they stop someone or come into a situation. There's not a ton of situations I can think of where the LEO was targeted first when the robber walked into a store. Normally, as I said above, the cop comes INTO the situation, or is trying to stop someone.

Second, wearing a uniform is a much bigger sign that you are packing heat than just open carrying. I have been around people OC'ing that it took them 5 mins to even notice that I had a gun on my side. Put that into a store with racks/people/other items in the way and there is a VERY good chance that that the BG would never know you had a firearm. Add into the situation that BG's tend to be more stupid than smart. Plus, inject adrenalin into the situation and the BG tends to be more focused on the goal "get money" than most of what's happening around them.

Matthew

How is this unfair? The article didn't specify cops or OCers, it only said "criminals will avoid an armed person." Cops are usually armed. If criminals always avoided armed people, cops would get more cooperation from them. Lots of security guards wear uniforms that look like cops, but are unarmed. Thus, wearing a uniform is not always a "sign that you are packing heat."

Edited September 17, 2009 by deerslayer

[Fallguy]

How is this unfair? The article didn't specify cops or OCers, it only said "criminals will avoid an armed person." Cops are usually armed. Lots of security guards wear uniforms that look like cops, but are unarmed. Thus, wearing a uniform is not always a "sign that you are packing heat."

Well don't most criminals try to avoid cops?

I think most attacks on on cops by criminals are after the cop has initiated contact with them, not when the criminal has just walked up to the cop. Right?

[deerslayer]

Of course, but if criminals were so terrified of them, they would never resist arrest or knuckle with the cops, either.

[Fallguy]

Of course, but if criminals were so terrified of them, they would never resist arrest or knuckle with the cops, either.

True, but the point is the criminal has a choice whether to interact with an OCer or not, he doesn't always have that choice with a LEO. When given the choice he probably wouldn't.

That is why I don't think it is quite and "apples to apples" comparison when someone mentions OCing by LEOs not deterring attacks upon them and it not deterring it upon non-LEO OCers.

[deerslayer]

The author of the article did not make that distinction.

[deerslayer]

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88553

[Guest marionandjohn]

When I read the "OC argument" what I got out of it is that if the crime is going to happen then its going to happen weather you are OC or CC and OC gives you quicker draw time (can we agree on that) I know that there are persons out there that can draw and be on target extremly fast how ever I believe that same person can draw quicker from an OC.

Also I got that it is better to not need it and have it then need it and not have it. With that being said if you are most comfortable CC then CC if you are most comfortable OC then OC but which ever dont leave it at home unless you cant legally have it. His argument was that you have a higher chance of stopping the crime from happening before it has happened then during the attack. As we say (I'm military) we like to take care of problems at the lowest level possible, and that just makes sence to me. I have open carried a few times but I dont have a holster I am really comfortable with and so I will wait till I get the holster I have researched and feel is best for me (after my trip) before I OC more. I will always be CC also just incase my weapon is taken I dont want to just be another statistic and still have a way to stop the guy from anymore harm to others or myself. just my opinions and takes on stuff.

[macville]

All I am saying is that you can normally spot an LEO a mile away because of their uniform--and a security guard uniform doesn't look close to any Police/State Trooper/ that I've seen. When I walk into a store that has an LEO inside it at the time, they just normally stick out like a sore thumb.

Another thought, if you are using a Fobus type holster, are 99% of criminals going to know how to get the gun out of it? I can see with a standard leather holster that just uses a snap as retention as much easier to get into. But with something like the Fobus you need to know how to draw the gun and it helps to be at the right angle also.

Matthew

[GLOCKMEISTER]

ya'll know that a major gang initiation or promotion requirement is to kill a COP and bring back their "bloody badge"....

It would kinda suck if some gang banger thought you were a Cop because your packing like John Wayne and capped your azz... it rarely happens, but what if?

And I dont care what kinda training you have or what kinda self proclaimed Rambo you think you are, if someones laying in wait to kill you your at an very big disadvantage!

Just something to think about.

[Guest Major Pain]

Would probably suck for the banger to if he brought back a bloody HCP badge instead of a cop badge.--MP

[Guest crotalus01]

ya'll know that a major gang initiation or promotion requirement is to kill a COP and bring back their "bloody badge"....

It would kinda suck if some gang banger thought you were a Cop because your packing like John Wayne and capped your azz... it rarely happens, but what if?QUOTE]

I have done a fair bit of searching on this one and have found no stories of it ever happening. Do you have a source to corroborate this claim of gang initiation?

Dont get me wrong, not saying you are lying, just curious as to the source of this information on gang initiation involving killing a cop as it seems that most cop killers are caught pretty quickly...

[Guest TackleberryTom]

If you think the career criminals are not making you, no matter how well you think you are concealing it, you are the fool. They are very good, in fact they are usually much better at spotting a CC'er than most cops are.

If you don't like the way I carry, tough. I don't like the way that most concealed carriers act like the fact that they have a gun on is something to be ashamed of.

I agree!

ya'll know that a major gang initiation or promotion requirement is to kill a COP and bring back their "bloody badge"....

Thanks for the urban legend stuff.

I also feel theres no need in anyone knowing my business

Hmmm, isn't your business the Goodlettsville Gun Shop? Seems like you are advertising your business. I do understand your point, I just couldn't resist the play on words.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

ya'll know that a major gang initiation or promotion requirement is to kill a COP and bring back their "bloody badge"....

It would kinda suck if some gang banger thought you were a Cop because your packing like John Wayne and capped your azz... it rarely happens, but what if?QUOTE]

I have done a fair bit of searching on this one and have found no stories of it ever happening. Do you have a source to corroborate this claim of gang initiation?

Dont get me wrong, not saying you are lying, just curious as to the source of this information on gang initiation involving killing a cop as it seems that most cop killers are caught pretty quickly...

Damned, can no one here use google.... I heard about it years ago in a gang class I took for inservice when I was with the SO. Heres a few links about the latest attempt earlier this year. Theres a homeland security advisory too, and an FB I memo but I dont have time to look for it.

Illegals targeted sheriff as gang initiation - Washington Times

ALIPAC - Illegal Alien Gang Initiation: Attempted Murder of US Police Officer!

Attempted murder of cop was gang initiation (OneNewsNow.com)