Plinker

[SavageSig]

I've done quite a bit of bench shooting, and while it's fun, my off-hand rifle shooting is rather pathetic. I can put together a dime sized group off a bench from 25m, but off hand...it's more like softball sized. What's a decent semi-auto that might improve my skill with iron sights out to 100 yards or so? Any tips besides practice? When I tried shooting with iron sights in the past, it was shoot a couple of times, then check with a scope to see my POA, and then try to adjust.

I'm thinking:

-S&W M&P 15-22

-Mossberg/Savage Stevens Academy/Wal-Mart/Dick's special

-Ruger 10/22

-Marlin Model 60

I want accuracy, half-way decent trigger and good iron sights.

I've got a buddy with a Model 60 and peep sights, and he can do about a poker chip at 25m off hand. The M&P is very appealing, but also the most expensive. I would not put any mods on any of these rifles, except maybe better iron sights.

I kicked around the idea of a lever or bolt .22, but I'm thinking that when practicing, I would prefer to keep my sight picture rather than losing it momentarily while working a lever or bolt.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I would also not be scared of keeping an eye out for an older out of production used model of some sort.

[Guest John J]

where do you go to start new thread

[SavageSig]

If you go to the Forum page (where you can see links to all the threads) there should be a button on the upper left portion of the page that says "New Thread".

If you click on that, you can start a new thread.

[Guest John J]

thanks

[Oh Shoot]

...

-Ruger 10/22

... half-way decent trigger

You'll need to stone/polish yourself and/or add something like Volquartsen target hammer in a standard 10/22 to get it from "pretty damn crummy" to "half way decent". And it'll never be a true tack driver with standard barrel, unbedded, etc.

The target model might please you, though.

A Savage that has AccuTrigger is really quite sweet indeed.

- OS

Edited January 9, 2010 by OhShoot

[Mike.357]

.22's are not exceptionally accurate at 100 yards. I don't really see them as 100 yard rifles.

iron sights at 100 yards are going to be bigger than the target.

I get frustrated at 50 yards even with a scope. 100 yards with iron drives me crazy.

The accu triggers on the two Savage rifles I have are pretty darn nice.

[SavageSig]

.22's are not exceptionally accurate at 100 yards. I don't really see them as 100 yard rifles.

iron sights at 100 yards are going to be bigger than the target.

I get frustrated at 50 yards even with a scope. 100 yards with iron drives me crazy.

The accu triggers on the two Savage rifles I have are pretty darn nice.

I feel the same way, but when I see my buddy shoot off-hand with irons, I get jealous. At 100 yards, I wouldn't be looking for a quarter sized group, but if I can hit a pie plate at 100 yards over and over again, I would consider myself successful.

And of course, up until a couple of decades ago, iron sights were IT. So I have faith that I CAN learn, it's just a question of sweating it out, I think.

The Savage accutrigger is quite nice, but I believe they're only available on their bolt guns. The cheap Savage 64 does not have it, and I'm not sure if Savage makes any other semis.

[SavageSig]

You'll need to stone/polish yourself and/or add something like Volquartsen target hammer in a standard 10/22 to get it from "pretty damn crummy" to "half way decent". And it'll never be a true tack driver with standard barrel, unbedded, etc.

The target model might please you, though.

A Savage that has AccuTrigger is really quite sweet indeed.

- OS

That's kind of why I don't want to get a 10/22. I know some people really like to trick out their gear, but I'd rather spend my money on other guns or ammo.

[glockster157]

The rifle is only part of the equation. If it will shoot a 1" group from the bench then it is capable enough. Just take the rifle and hold it in a standing position, look up some position pictures on line, and build the muscles up. Like anything muscle building, multiple reps over several weeks will develop the muscles fairly quickly. You don't have to shoot the gun, get some snap caps and work on your breathing and trigger control at the same time. Luckily, the muscles used to shoot are the same ones we use every day so they develop quickly. I am limited only by my limited talent and now poor eyesight.

[Oh Shoot]

That's kind of why I don't want to get a 10/22. I know some people really like to trick out their gear, but I'd rather spend my money on other guns or ammo.

Well, I can't hit a 9" plate at 100 yards with open sights with any gun I own but maybe half the time at best, and I mean well braced. Totally freehand would probably drop to 20% or less.

Reason being, as Mike said, front sight is bigger than the target.

Heck, even at 50 yards, on bipod, front sight covers enough of plate that I can only "guess" at 6 inch groups.

'Course, with .22, you've got the big time bullet drop, so you can't set sights same at 50 and 100 yards. .22 ammo is a huge variable too, if you don't use the same stuff all the time.

Then again, some people can really SHOOT with about any setup, I admit, and many if not most seem to better than moi.

- OS

[LngRngShtr]

At 100 yds. wind reading is important but that would show as a lateral stringing..

Your gear sounds capable enough to start so buy a few bricks of ammo and start out close if you have a range you can do this at... start out at say 25ft. and as your groups shrink add more yardage your errors are magnified with range and if it is a windy day you could be just depressing yourself thinking it is something you are doing fundamentally wrong when it is the wind that is whats the problem and wind reading is another skill for a later time

I have seen beginning small bore shooters at 50ft. struggle to keep all 10 rounds on the paper at first some I coached with shorter distance shooting to build confidence others I had them shoot from position with a tall tripod supporting most of the weight again trying to limit the variable while learning a skill set. sometimes we would have them run 10-20 rounds prone from a rest to reverify they hadn't picked up a bad habit that would be masked by the more difficult position offhand being the hardest of the 4 we taught them..(prone,sitting,kneeling and offhand)

As far as the sights go,... set them off the rest and leave them alone you are looking for consistent groups first, then we worry about cutting 10's and X's or poker chips or whatever the target is.. until you have a consistent group you will chase your sight adjustment to hell and back trying to get centered up..tight groups show consistency consistency is what we are after.....

Rifles are accurate or inaccurate,..Shooters are consistent or inconsistent... hits/scores are high when an accurate rifle meets a consistent shooter

1. breath control there is a pause at the bottom of your respiratory cycle some folks breathe in a half step this is also used to fine tune adjust elevationwhen you are more experienced.

2. trigger control slow controlled break,should be a surprise not anticipated finger goes straight back just the pad touching the rifle rest of your finger is surrounded by air..

3. follow through let it all settle back down after firing before anything else movesor breathes..

4. natural point of aim if you close your eyes does the rifle point the same place when you open them again after counting to 5 slowly ?

5. visual acuity - don't stare at the sights/target too long or you see shadow images..

6. call your shot - where did you think it went vs. where the hole in the target tells you it went with experience these will coincide and then the holes will tell you what you did wrong ( see #'s 1-5 each of those not done correctly will produce a result there are charts that decipher this "code" )

Hope this helps..this will help if you are a handgunner also, fundamentals are the same..

John

[Mike.357]

.22 ammo is a huge variable too, if you don't use the same stuff all the time.

in my book ammo is the biggest variable. Every .22 I have seems to shoot differently with any and all ammo. What works great in one sucks in another. Then throw in an auto loader and the round that may be most accurate might be one that does not feed reliably. Price of ammo does not seem to matter either.

[SavageSig]

I'm not new to .22, just looking for a new rifle and ways to improve my off-hand shooting. My Savage Mark II shot best with Wolf Match, Remington Target, Federal Bulk or Remington Yellow Jackets. Only average with Remington Golden Bullets. All over the place with Mini-Mags and Winchester HV.

Even with a 12x scope, I could not get groups tighter than about a baseball at 100 yards with a .22. I figure if I can get a group that tight at that distance with iron sights, I can shoot accurately with any other rifle with iron sights at any distance.

Maybe I'll just keep searching the used racks until I find a semi-auto that shoulders nicely and has good, precise sights. I don't want Hi-Viz sights or anything like that, just nice adjustable sights.

Anyone know if the M&P 15-22 has aperture sights or regular notch and post sights?

Actually, anybody have an opinion on a CZ452 w/ iron sights?

Edited January 9, 2010 by SavageSig

[Oh Shoot]

...

Even with a 12x scope, I could not get groups tighter than about a baseball at 100 yards with a .22...

Despite wild ass claims I read all the time of 1" groups @ 100 yards, I think that's about all most pedestrian .22's will do.

That's about what my 10/22's will do, with scope and bipod, no wind (replaced hammer in both for a lighter pull).

Bedded, with a bull barrel or 10/22 target model, might cut that in half or better.

Heck, that baseball is about what my $90 Mossberg Plinkster bolt rifle would do if it didn't have a really heavy clunky trigger.

Course, conventional wisdom will tell you that you DO want a bolt action model rather than semi-auto if you're serious about making that baseball smaller and smaller.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

...

Rifles are accurate or inaccurate,..Shooters are consistent or inconsistent... hits/scores are high when an accurate rifle meets a consistent shooter...

Good post.

There's no doubt that technology only goes so far and technique makes the rest of the difference.

And there's little doubt that some are more natural shooters than others, some are better with long guns, some with pistols, etc.

In my youth, knew a guy that was just a wizard with a shotgun, hit stuff on the fly like he had bat radar, but with a handgun couldn't bust a stationary can at 15 feet in twenty tries.

Then there are folks who can just flat seem to shoot anything better than most.

But for many if not most of us, as you post, practicing good technique is what counts.

- OS

[SavageSig]

In my youth, knew a guy that was just a wizard with a shotgun, hit stuff on the fly like he had bat radar, but with a handgun couldn't bust a stationary can at 15 feet in twenty tries.

- OS

Haha, reminds me of that scene in Unforgiven where Clint can't hit a can with a pistol, but he can with his shotgun.

After doing some internet drooling, I'm really leaning towards the CZ452 w/ iron sights or a M&P 15-22. The CZ is just too nice to pass by without some serious consideration. I'll have to go to G&L and check them out.

[Oh Shoot]

Haha, reminds me of that scene in Unforgiven where Clint can't hit a can with a pistol, but he can with his shotgun.

After doing some internet drooling, I'm really leaning towards the CZ452 w/ iron sights or a M&P 15-22. ...

I'd be REAL surprised if the M&P was in the same ballpark as the CZ, accuracy wise. Short of really high end match .22s, the CZ bolt guns are what I see most often touted for accuracy by the aficianados on RimfireCentral and the like.

And yeah, the target practice scene in Unforgiven was great!

- OS

[Guest GenNBForrest]

I am amazed how well my box stock Marlin model 60 shoots. It took lots of tuning to get my 10/22 to out shoot it. Great little rifles for the money.

[crashgordan]

The S&W offers a few good options ( i have one and am still finding it's sweet spot)

It is built w/ a TC match barrel, this is good.

it offers you a reciever that you can drop a match trigger in (i like the RRA two stage or the Timney Drop in)

it comes with basic but functional and solid iron sights.

if you are an AR shooter, it is a identical platform for training with.

you can change/updgrade your stock to whatever works best for you.

you can easily mount optics on the rail system.

beyond that, i think the 100 yd accuracy will be based on the shooter and the ammo.

mine will shoot minute of coke can offhand at 75 yds all day long with standard plinking ammo, i think this would be easy w/ the rifle in a rest or on bags.

suspect w/ good ammo on a bag, groups would tighten considerably, possibly 1-2 inches.

the sights are limited for MOA shooting for the reasons mentioned, but the gun could probably do it if properly rested.

that said, probably not going to outshoot the CZ's, but i have not experience with them. Don't love the bolt guns, but that doesn't mean they aren't great.

also have the 10/22, and by the time you get it up to that level of accuracy and tune, you will have similar money in it as the S&W.

seeing them for as low as $360 if you can qualify for a LE/military rate,

as low as $430 out the door for regular guys. Gundepot in Elizbethton TN.

love mine. my kids LOVE it too....

it is a great training tool and an effective platform for training.

[Guest bsherrill]

savagesig--

I know you said you'd prefer a semi-auto, but the cz 452 iron sight guns are the best.

It will shoot just as good or better than your savage mark II. The ultra lux model is set up for iron sights and it has the longest barrel for the best sight radius. I've seen several match results for ironsight only groups and the cz 452 is always at the top....probably because it is the best for the money. You could buy an anschutz, but thats a lot of money to fork out for a 22...although they do make great silhouette guns

The czs shoot great with wolf mt(and better)

...and rimfire central is the best place to go for info about these