Who shoots .357 sig?

[creeky]

Molonlabetn's thread on his new M&P in .357 sig got me to wondering...

Just how many members of TGO are actually shooting this caliber and

also how many did but stopped?

So I decided to add a Poll thingy... so we could gauge this at a glance.

Also feel free to add what guns you have that you have chambered

in it or what guns you had chambered in it and why you don't shoot .357 sig

anymore. (I suspect it would be the price of ammo.)

===============================================

Me?

H&K USPc

[Guest Verbal Kint]

My Sig 229 is chambered in .357SIG. I enjoyed shooting it, even as costly as it was compared to other ammo, but haven't shot it in several years now. I think it's a really good defensive round, and fun to shoot.

[molonlabetn]

It used to be prohibitively expensive to shoot much of this caliber, but with several major bulk reloading manufacturers carrying this caliber, it's been no more expensive to shoot than .45acp for about the past year. And considering the rising cost of common calibers...

I've got 2 .357sig pistols... I've owned a total of 4 at different times:

SIG SP2340

SIG P239

SA XD-357

S&W M&P 357

[Marswolf]

I don't own one yet, but I'm planning on buying one as soon as I find a pistol in the caliber that I REALLY like. I may just end up buying a barrel for my USP 40.

[Guest Mugster]

I clicked no, but have been mulling over getting another browning hi-power in .40 so I can buy another barrel in .357 sig for it. I haven't gotten motivated to do it yet, though.

[Guest canynracer]

Just curious....isnt the 357sig a 9mm bullet in a 357 case? (obviously gunpowder difference) but is it a good defense caliber? compared to say a 40?

[Guest Mugster]

It uses a necked down .40 S&W case, but it does use a .355" bullet (9mm) as opposed to .357" in .38 special, .357 magnum, and .38 super.

It has more power than the 9mm, so if you believe in a smaller/faster bullet for self defense, it should work well for you.

[Marswolf]

Just curious....is it a good defense caliber? compared to say a 40?

I think it is a good defense round, but I have a caveat. Over penetration is potentially a problem. I'd probably want a 40 S&W for normal urban carry, or a 9mm. I'm comfortable with both of those calibers.

The 357 sig comes into its own when you want more penetration than the 9mm or 40 S&W and less bullet drop and more power at greater distances. Many Highway Patrols carry them because they are better penetrators of car glass than a 40 S&W and they are less likely to have collateral damage because they are less likely to fire in a crowd of people.

[creeky]

It also seems that I read something about Texas Dept. of Safety going

to it because of that as well as something about being very

effective against car doors as well.

[molonlabetn]

It's a bit more than a necked down .40s&w... the brass has thicker webbing, and is designed for higher pressures, thus capable of hotter loading than .40s&w due to higher pressure and slightly more useable case volume.

It's a good load for anyone who recognizes that the .357magnum is at the top of the food-chain with regard to handgun SD cartridges, and want their autoloader to mimic its performance.

[creeky]

I always thought that .45 acp and .357 magnum pretty much tied

when it came to "one shot stops". I was thinking they both were

around 96% range. (125 gr. and 230 gr.)

[Guest Mugster]

I dunno about thicker webbing on the case, I'd doubt it. The cartridge wall might be a bit thicker if you aren't carefull when you neck down.

The issue is, and why people have trouble with it, is .357 sig headspaces off the shoulder and not the neck or the base. It needs to be sized on a single stage press by someone that know what they are doing. Here's an article:

http://www.realguns.com/archives/001.htm

[Marswolf]

I'm curious. I keep seeing that the 357 sig has a thicker case wall in the web than the 40 S&W. But I can't find any specification to that effect.

Reloaders know that brass wall thickness can vary significantly from one brass manufacturer to another in the same caliber. A rule of thumb is that military brass is thicker than commercial brass. This thicker/thinner wall is of sufficient importance that it must be compensated for in the powder load for greatest accuracy from a given firearm. That's why I always use IMI brass in my 308s if I'm loading for accuracy, rather than mix the IMIs with Winchesters and just whatever else I have lying around.

So far, I haven't been able to come up with specifications from SAAMI or anyone else that tells the minimum wall thickness. I know it has to exist, but I haven't found it. If anyone can point me to that information, I will be appreciative.

[Guest Mugster]

Marswolf,

Seeing this written where, exactly? As far as I know, there are no published specs on case construction. Only external dimensions.

The 2 best tools you can do yourself a favor and buy right now are a hacksaw and a chronograph. Its easy enough to cut open a few .40 cases and a few .357 sig cases and measure them if you suspect something. I'd bet a beer they'll measure out the same in terms of thickness of any of the dimensions.

Here's another good article where a guy cut open standard .45acp brass, .45 acp +P, .45 super, and .460 rowland. They all measured out the same, pretty much.

http://www.realguns.com/archives/106.htm

[Marswolf]

Seeing this written where, exactly? As far as I know, there are no published specs on case construction. Only external dimensions.

People keep saying it in forums. It was mentioned in this thread.

The 2 best tools you can do yourself a favor and buy right now are a hacksaw and a chronograph. Its easy enough to cut open a few .40 cases and a few .357 sig cases and measure them if you suspect something. I'd bet a beer they'll measure out the same in terms of thickness of any of the dimensions.

Do you mean a micrometer? Don't need the hacksaw. I have one of these:

You can set it up to read bottleneck brass thicknesses too.

Actually I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that the 357 sig brass is thicker than the 40 S&W. It would help with the unsupported chamber thingy. I'm just curious about official specifications. It seems like there should be some minimum wall thickness. Maybe you have to join SAAMI to see it?

[Guest Mugster]

Heh, well I know you already have a micrometer. I threw out chronograph for no extra charge as another BS cutting tool.

Your going to have to cut to measure the web though.

I have to admit, I don't have any SAAMI pubs or cd's on my bookshelf, so I don't know exactly what is in there. They are quite pricey.

Another thing you might try is emailing a premium brass house like lapua or possibly hornady. I've never used any of their products, as I primarily reload to save money...so its range pickup or once fired factory for me. But I'd bet they have someone that knows the answer, and they are small, so you can probably figure out who it might be. Or give black hills a call. They are still small enough also, you might get an answer.

[Guest canynracer]

Thanks for the info, I am going to buy a CCW gun and I wanted to make sure...I will stick with 9mm or 40... probably 9mm

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I always thought that .45 acp and .357 magnum pretty much tied

when it came to "one shot stops". I was thinking they both were

around 96% range. (125 gr. and 230 gr.)

The simple truth is that most "1 shot stops" have more to do with psychology than physics or physiology. The wounded party simply chooses to stop. If it truly would knock them down it would knock us down. Newton's laws of physics. And how then do we explain guys taking 308 rounds to the chest from a few feet away with hard armor on and it not knocking them down? There's a video of that. Whole lot more energy there than in ANY handgun round. There is no empirical scientific data (sorry, Marshal and Sanow is not scientific research) to quantify any kind of "1 shot stop probability' . Sometimes you just get lucky.

And that is why the more progressive trainers advocate shooting the assailant to the ground. If it takes 1 round ...fine. If it takes 2...fine. If it takes 4 fine. I'll shoot what there is to shoot until it is no longer a threat. This pretty much eliminates any worry over whether your caliber/load/gun is the best. Doesn't matter. Even if my chosen carry load was a 25% stopper, if I shoot you 4 times that should make it a 100% stopper (4x25=100).

All pistols suck. Some just suck a tiny bit less than others. 357sig gives better hard target penentration than 40 and that is why Tx,Tn,Ri,OK,Nc,Nm,MT and De state police all use it.In fact the THP (Tennessee Hiway Patrol) shot a guy in the face with a 180 gr .40 and it didn't even penetrate the guy's soft palate....(all handgun rounds suck)......In fact Tom Givens informs me that in Memphis it takes 11 shootings with pistols to produce 1 fatality. Of the 11, 7 are treated and released, 2 are held over night for observation and sent home, 1 generally averages a 2 week stay and #11 is a fatality. When the cops arrive they ask what you shot dude with. If you say a pistol they ask which way he ran off. If you say a rifle or shotgun they say" where is the body?";)

Aside from it being expensive to buy ammo for 357 sig and it being hard on guns (long term) there is nothing wrong with it. I carried one for 6 years, and I'd be willing to carry it again.

[creeky]

I agree with you...

Shot placement has more to do with stopping some one than anything else. I just feel that some rounds leave you with a little more room for error. So statistically it seems that when you only look at handgun calibers... the .45 acp 230 gr. and the .357 mag in 125 gr. have shown the best measurable results from recorded data.

Granted this may be because there is more data on these rounds, being that they were issued pretty wide spread. But there is also a lot of data throught the 80's and into the 90's when 9mm was becoming the most common police round.

The info that I am looking at can be found here.

I also agree that the "will" to keep fighting is a factor (same came be said if drugs are involed), but I can't help but think internal damage is a big factor as well. But I conceed I could very well be wrong.

**Edit...**

Went by Wally World in Cool Springs on lunch. The lady that runs the

sporting section (very nice BTW) checked on the price of .357 sig for me.

(I had heard prices were going up.. again!) No change in price.

$19.71 a box... In fact we chatted and she said she just changed prices

a while ago and strangely it was the only one that did NOT go up!

Also mentioned that she used to hardly ever sell a box untill about two years

ago, and now she sells them all the time. (Wooo Hooo!!)

[Marswolf]

The wounded party simply chooses to stop.

The way I put it is that men are not like deer. Men generally give up before they need to.

(sorry, Marshal and Sanow is not scientific research)

Absolutely correct. Glad to see you write that.

[Guest mjwehrman]

Hey everybody,

New to the forum and haven't been able to find a thread on this. I've never fired a .357 sig and was curious what everybody thinks of this cartridge. Is it just for plinking or do some of you carry it? Hows the stopping power? Am I crazy for even considering a gun chambered in .357?

[molonlabetn]

Several folks on here shoot .357sig.

I've been shooting this caliber for 4 years now, from a handful of different pistols. Two Sigs, an M&P, and an XD... the latter which I still own and carry regularly. It's not the cheapest caliber to shoot, but it's more affordable than .45acp, by comparison. So, it's not so much for plinking as it is designed to be an effective duty/self-defense round, being one of the most powerful common autoloading cartridges available, aside from 10mm Auto. Its performance approximates the 125gr .357magnum load which has been regarded as one of the most effective for many years.

I'm not sure where you're located, but you'd be welcome to fire my XD-357 if you like... it's a bit more snappy than .40s&w, but not much.

May want to check out this thread: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3009

[Guest mjwehrman]

I appreciate the input. Currently I am in the Nashville area but next time I am down your way we should definately hit the range. I currently have an XD .45 4" that I love. I am considering a H&K P2000SK for carry, which is offered in .357 and .40. I will find someone to go shoot with and try out the .357. Thanks!

[creeky]

I carry a USPc in .357 sig and have had it for about eight years and have carried

it the whole time.

I've also shot a Glock 31 (mini glock in .357 sig) the recoil was perfectly

manageable.

Molon's right about the cost, but it's a fun little round. I pay something like

$19-$20 a box from wally world. (Unless they have gone up.) I like the looks

of the P2000sk as well.

[molonlabetn]

...I pay something like

$19-$20 a box from wally world.

Ouch!

I pay that much for 50rd of the ammo I carry... check out Georgia Arms, it's well worth buying a 500rd can or so at a time, you'll shoot almost twice as much for your money.

I've bought some of that WWB stuff from Wally World... and it was $18.42 before tax, defenitely not cost effective. I guess WM just doesn't buy much of it compared to 9mm and .40.