Reciprocity Help

[Guest theolog]

My 6-month "carrying-on-an-out-of-state-grace-period" is almost up.

I know I need the class, application and "renewal fee." Fingerprinting is not required. I found the application on this website, and I have the class lined up. So, I take the paperwork and money to a driver's license center, correct? Since I'm seeking reciprocity, and paying a "renewal" fee, is there still a 90-day wait, or is it issued when I turn everything in?

Thanks for your help.

[dralarms]

It may be considered a "renewal" but I think eveything has to go to nashville and they issue a HCP. I do not think that the DL place will issue one.

[Guest theolog]

Gotcha. Thanks.

[Guest 270win]

What state is your license from? I have an AR CHL and got a TN Handgun Carry Permit when i moved to Shelby County by filling out the renewal application and paying fifty dollars at the highway patrol office on Summer in Memphis. I got my DL and Handgun Carry Permit taken care of at the same time. I did not have to take a class (i had to take a class, range qualification) or be fingerprinted (my CHL was good for bypassing the background check at FFL's when buying a firearm). I got my TN Handgun Carry Permit in about a month because the Memphis office did not send the main office in Nashville a copy of my CHL. Luckily, i was called by the Nashville within two weeks of filling out the paperwork, faxed the highway patrol office a copy of my AR CHL, and got my TN Handgun Carry Permit two weeks after (I had a state holiday slowing down the process).

Best of luck, i found the process here much easier than 8 notorized pages of junk in Arkansas.

[Guest 270win]

Oh i forgot, my Handgun Carry Permit came through the mail from the Nashville office. I did not pick it up from the highway patrol office in Memphis where i got my DL.

[Guest theolog]

Mine is from North Carolina which requires a class, fingerprinting, extended sheriff's office background check, notarized nonsense, three signed and notarized statements from people vouching for the applicant, and a statement from the local mental health agency saying the applicant has never been treated. Not sure why I need to take the class here since some other states don't, unless of course TN use of force law if appreciably different.

I didn't have to take the class in NC since I was a cop and went through at least four firearms training sessions a year.

CCWs in North Carolina can also be used in lieu of a pistol purchase permit obtained from the sheriff which can take a while to get, depending on the county. NC doesn't have a "TICS" alternative.

[Fallguy]

North Carolina

• Applicant must be twenty-one (21), complete a DOS approved handgun safety course, complete the Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit application, and pay the applicable renewal fee.

http://tennessee.gov/safety/handgun/apprequirements.htm

[Guest 270win]

I just pulled up the list from the TN Dept of Safety and you are right about TN requiring you to sit through a junk class. I would call if you were a LEO in another state and talk to someone knowledgeable at the main Nashville office. Maybe you can bypass the Mickey Mouse class and pay the fifty bucks like i did and be done with it.

[Guest theolog]

North Carolina

• Applicant must be twenty-one (21), complete a DOS approved handgun safety course, complete the Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit application, and pay the applicable renewal fee.

http://tennessee.gov/safety/handgun/apprequirements.htm

I already read and know that. It didn't answer the questions that I posted here.

[Guest theolog]

I just pulled up the list from the TN Dept of Safety and you are right about TN requiring you to sit through a junk class. I would call if you were a LEO in another state and talk to someone knowledgeable at the main Nashville office. Maybe you can bypass the Mickey Mouse class and pay the fifty bucks like i did and be done with it.

Having to take the class doesn't really bother me since it will give me an excuse to go shoot, but it would surely save me some much-needed money.

You're right, a phone call might be worth it just to inquire.

[Fallguy]

I already read and know that. It didn't answer the questions that I posted here.

To answer your question. The DL station you may go to does not issue the permit, your paper work is sent to Nashville and the permit comes from there. But you can submit the paperwork for a HCP at any DL station in the state.

Also you are seeking a TN permit not reciprocity. Reciprocity is used in which states honor the others permit while a resident of one state is in another.

[Guest theolog]

No, I'm seeking CCW reciprocity, regardless of the state's terminology. Where the state says:

"For Persons Holding a Handgun Carry Permit from Other States and Applying for a Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit."

By definition, that is reciprocity. If you are certified in one state in anything (like as an EMT or Paramedic, for instance) you seek reciprocity in another state, to recognize your certification and grant you that state's certification.

Thanks much for the DL station info. Much appreciated.

[Fallguy]

http://tennessee.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.htm

I'm not meaning to argue about terms. I was just trying to help with my first post...I'm sorry it wasn't the info you were looking for.

[Guest theolog]

No worries, I'll still buy you a beer and we can talk trash about...something!

[Fallguy]

LOL...more than fair.

What part of NC where you from? My brother moved to Rutherfordton earlier this year.

[Guest theolog]

LOL...more than fair.

What part of NC where you from? My brother moved to Rutherfordton earlier this year.

Ha...not far away at all. Just a couple miles down 74, in fact.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

I just pulled up the list from the TN Dept of Safety and you are right about TN requiring you to sit through a junk class. I would call if you were a LEO in another state and talk to someone knowledgeable at the main Nashville office. Maybe you can bypass the Mickey Mouse class and pay the fifty bucks like i did and be done with it.

As a TN Department of Safety Certified Handgun Carry Permit Instructor, I take humbrage at your calling the class "junk" and "Mickey Mouse."

Is the State-mandated class the greatest shooting course in the world? No. But, it's not supposed to be, either.

The class is designed to ensure that people seeking a carry permit can safely, effectively, and fairly accurately operate a handgun, and to ensure that they are reasonably familiar with the important carry laws in this State.

I don't know the original poster, so this isn't geared towards him. However, I have known plenty of cops who didn't know how to shoot, or were too familiar with the carry laws of Tennessee.

As evidence, I submit the recent thread regarding the Knoxville police officer who threatened to arrest a carry permit holder for open carrying a 1911, because the cop wrongfully believed it to be illegal. As for safe firearms operation, I submit the Florida DEA agent who shot himself in the leg, in front of a class full of grade school students.

If professional law enforcement officers such as these don't know the law, or how to safely operate a gun, is it really safe to assume that everyone does? We teach the class specifically to these types of people, the LEAST COMMON DENOMINATOR!

Now, the types of people who frequent online gun forums such as TGO are probably slightly more familiar with the various carry laws than those folks who don't. But, that can't be assumed, either. How many threads have we seen, posted by a carry permit holder, requesting clarification on an issue which was already covered in the "junk," "Mickey Mouse" class they had to take?

After rereading your post, it appears you were able to get your permit without taking the TN DoS class, as it appears you took one somewhere else. Now, maybe the class in your former State was "junk" and "Mickey Mouse," but if you haven't taken the TN class, on what do you base your opinion?

[Guest theolog]

Oh for God's sake, are you kidding me? You know what, champ? I've been a member here less than a month, and the steady anti-police sentiment is ensuring that I won't be here another month.

The old "most cops can't shoot" thing gets really old really fast and is usually based in bias and one-sided anecdotal evidence.

Basic handgun or CCW courses are usually Mickey Mouse by design, no matter who or teaches them, or where they are offered. If people need that kind of basic remedial instruction, they are barely close enough to handle a firearm anyway, let alone carry it.

His Mickey Mouse comment was in direct response to my training, when I said that I went through annual training four times a year for the last seven years. Read the context of his comment:

"I would call if you were a LEO in another state and talk to someone knowledgeable at the main Nashville office. Maybe you can bypass the Mickey Mouse class and pay the fifty bucks like i did and be done with it."

To be fair, for someone like me, the class would be more Minnie Mouse than Mickey.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Actually, HERO, I am as pro-LE as a person can get. My dad is a cop. I applied for a job last year with Brentwood PD (I came in 3-4 out of 30+ applicants, but they were only hiring 2 people.) My best-friend is a former cop. If you ever actually spent any time with me, you'd see just how far off-base you are, stud.

My issue was not with your training, which is why I specifically said that it wasn't meant for you, as I don't know you, or how well your training was run.

In fact, my issue was primarily with his apparent assumption that the class was "junk" and "Mickey Mouse," which to me imply useless. I say apparent assumption because it would appear that he didn't have to attend a class here in Tennessee. That would be like me saying your training was "junk" and "Mickey Mouse," even though I'd never witnessed any of it. For all I know, you may have been trained at the best schools in the country, by some of the best instructors in the world. Many cops are, including that best friend of mine - who is a POST certified Basic Firearms, Shotgun, and Patrol Carbine Instructor himself, as well as a certified Police Sniper, and a damn good shot.

However, there are also plenty of people out there who would benefit greatly from taking the Carry Permit Class. Like the Knoxville police officer I mentioned earlier. He moved here from Ohio several years ago, and harrassed a carry permit holder who was open carrying because he mistakenly thought open carry was illegal in TN. In fact, he mistakenly thought it was illegal in Ohio, as well. How many people move here from out-of-state, coming from States where open carry is illegal, or where carry into restaurants serving alcohol is legal (TX and OK come immediately to mind)? I don't mean just cops, either. I mean anyone. If John Q. Public moves here from a State whose safety class is accepted by TN DoS, and whose laws allow carry into restaurants, and he gets caught carrying there under his new TN permit, is the judge likely to say "Oh, that's ok, ignorance of the law is a justifiable defense."? I doubt it.

The same goes for soldiers and other servicemembers, in my opinion. Now, before you get your panties in a wad, I was a soldier for 8 years, I know what I'm talking about here. In TN, a military servicemember can get a permit with a copy of their orders and a memo from their commander stating that they've qualified with a handgun sometime during their military career. I had a commander who was willing to sign such a memo for me, even though I had never fired a military handgun prior to that. Also, I moved here from Maine, where I had a carry permit. Maine issued me my permit because I had a DD-214 which showed I had been in the military within 5 years of applying for my permit. (I was in for 2, out for 5, reenlisted for 6 more.) How many carry laws in TN do you think I knew? None. But that wouldn't have stopped the State from issuing me a carry permit.

Just because the TN Handgun Carry Permit class isn't a law enforcement academy, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, or whatever school you like, doesn't mean it's "junk" or "Mickey Mouse." And, for a person to make those comments without attending the class reeks of elitism and disdain for anyone who isn't as great as they percieve themselves to be.

Oh, and my Dad, the 21-year USAF vet and 20+ year cop, taught me how to shoot a handgun (and a rifle for that matter). When I finally got some professional instruction, I realized just how much he didn't teach me, and just how many urban legends he propogated.

But, like I said, you might have the best training in the world. That doesn't mean all cops do, and definitely not all non-LEOs have great training. There are plenty of folks who cn benefit greatly from the 8 hours of sitting through the class. If for nothing else than to get some info on the laws of their new home. And, as I said before, the training is geared towards the lowest common denominator - be it LEO or not.

Edited to add: And you can't tell me that in seven years in law enforcement you've never run across a fellow LEO that didn't cause you to say "Huh? How'd that guy / gal manage to dress themself, much less get a badge?". If you haven't, congratulations, you've been working in a good, professional department, with surrounding jurisdictions that are just as good and professional. In that case, I can't see why you'd want to leave.

[Guest bkelm18]

Well stated, ETS.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

To further support my position, I submit the following:

From the TN Department of Safety website http://tennessee.gov/safety/handgun/apprequirements.htm#VA

Virginia:

Applicant must complete the application, pay $50.00 fee, provide proof of fingerprinting in Virginia. If proof of finger-printing cannot be provided, the applicant must pay the one-hundred and fifteen dollar ($115) fee and be fingerprinted.

(Virginia requires the applicant to complete a safety course.)

In Virginia, it is illegal to carry a concealed firearm into a restaurant which serves alcohol. However, openly carried firearms are legal. If a person were to move here from VA, they don't have to take the Carry Permit class, as they had one in VA. Now, not knowing that it is illegal to open carry into a Knoxville Hooter's they decide to open carry there. The new manager, mindful of the shooting that occured there a few days ago, decides to call the police, rather than confront an armed man. The cops arrive at a call of "man with a gun." Tell, me, how would you as an officer respond to that call? Most likely, you'd respond as you should: with your gun drawn, with multiple partners, and you would dominate the situation, so as to ensure your safety and the safety of the public. That's how it ought to be done. (Notice that that is about as polar opposite as you can get from most internet cop-bashing - hell, I'd even advocate shooting his dog if it were even remotely necessary.)

That carry permit holder thought he was doing the right thing, because he was doing exactly as he had been told in the class he took. Unfortunately, the laws differ here, and he wasn't aware of it because he didn't join TGO before moving here, or he's not very internet savvy. Now he's facing 11 / 29 and a $2500 fine because he thought he was doing the right thing.

I am not saying that cops don't get adequate training for their jobs. I'm simply saying that people who move from out-of-state rarely tend to sufficiently know the laws of where they are moving to, and therefore, before being issued a permit here, they should be required to take the class. Or at least be required to take an abbreviated class which covers the laws of TN. If your permit from your former home state required a shooting portion, that part should be acceptable, as gun safety rules don't vary simply because you cross a line on a map. But, the laws regarding wearing that gun do change.

[Guest bkelm18]

To further support my position, I submit the following:

From the TN Department of Safety website http://tennessee.gov/safety/handgun/apprequirements.htm#VA

Virginia:

Applicant must complete the application, pay $50.00 fee, provide proof of fingerprinting in Virginia. If proof of finger-printing cannot be provided, the applicant must pay the one-hundred and fifteen dollar ($115) fee and be fingerprinted.

(Virginia requires the applicant to complete a safety course.)

Speaking of which, my 6 months of grace using my VA permit is almost up as well. I need to call the DoS to ask how in the world I provide proof of fingerprinting.

[Guest theolog]

In that case, I can't see why you'd want to leave.

Because there's a hell of a lot more to life than guns and law enforcement.

Oh wait, does that make me elitist and disdainful?

[Marswolf]

Hey! I'm supposed to be the resident grouch here....

[Fallguy]

ETS I'm glad to hear that you apparently cover the TN laws in your class. But best I remember the class I took several years ago didn't cover much of the law. Also on the range part as long as your shots were pretty much down range, you were going to pass. Now I know this could vary by instructor. I have always wondered what exactly is mandated by the state to be covered in the class.

I guess some may just think with the permit costing $115 the $50-$100 for a class is just piling on.

Are instructors updated on law changes by the state? I have known a few people that have had recent classes that were flat out told wrong on some laws. Like one guy on another forum that was told he couldn't carry into a lawyer's office or any goverment building. Let me say I am not talking about you and your class, sounds like you do a good job. But I would be upset to pay that kind of money then find out I was told wrong. Would make you wonder what else was incorrect.

Seems to me the state pretty much leaves it up the HCP holder to keep up with laws themselves. If you go to the Dept. of Safety's website it gives a general link to check the laws. Many states have the list of off-limit places and other laws right there on their page.

Ok....back to the topic at hand....which was..oh..bet theolog has his permit by now...lol