God did not create the universe, says Hawking

[Guest trigem]

Yep, fanatics and zealots of any ilk are pain in the ass and to be avoided, if possible.

ישו הוא מלך של מלכים ואלוהים של אלוהימים, הוא בזמן הקרוב ידן את העולם בתכונה של ריטאוס

[mikegideon]

ישו הוא מלך של מלכים ואלוהים של אלוהימים, הוא בזמן הקרוב ידן את העולם בתכונה של ריטאוס

Looks like trigem has been kidnapped by terrorists! Guess we need to put a recue mission together.

[Guest trigem]

Looks like trigem has been kidnapped by terrorists! Guess we need to put a recue mission together.

Just trying to get some to think more..

Jesus πλησιάζει αναθεωρήσουν τις απόψεις

[Handsome Rob]

I don't read Klingon.

[Guest trigem]

It's Greek for, na, you don't want to know

[Guest Letereat!]

So we are resorting to unintelligible secret insults and messages........well take this then

ξυστ Α βυνχ ΟΦ ΩΟΡΘΛΕΣΣ ΒΑΒΒΛΕ ΥΦ Η ΚΑΝΝΟΤ ΙΝΤΕΡΠΡΕΤ ΥΟΥΡ ΦΑΝΚΥ ΣΚΡΙΠΤ

[Guest trigem]

So we are resorting to unintelligible secret insults and messages........well take this then

ξυστ Α βυνχ ΟΦ ΩΟΡΘΛΕΣΣ ΒΑΒΒΛΕ ΥΦ Η ΚΑΝΝΟΤ ΙΝΤΕΡΠΡΕΤ ΥΟΥΡ ΦΑΝΚΥ ΣΚΡΙΠΤ

I don't resort to insults or calling names, Just thoughts from the BIBLE:p

Sense many here are offended by the BIBLE, I used it in Hebrew & Greek..

Chill out :D

[USMCJG]

Yep, fanatics and zealots of any ilk are pain in the ass and to be avoided, if possible.

I have to say though, that I've never had to post a "no trespassing" sign to keep the Atheists away from the door, with their "There is no god" literature. Nor have I ever spent a Sunday morning surfing around the various TV channels, trying to find something to watch other than some guy or gal saying there is no god, and I'm not going to hell if I don't send him/her any money.

I've also never heard of 2 different groups of atheists going to war over which of them was more correct in their disbelief. :-\

I must admit that I did have a religious person show up at my house several years ago to try to give me the gospel, I declined and he left. I still haven't felt the need to get a sign.

Some atheists are in a perpetual verbal war with anyone who disagrees with them, just like some (insert denomination here) are. I mean are the Ten Commandments at a courthouse really hurting anyone? I don't have a problem with any of the ten. It's not about content, it's about ideology(and a complete misunderstanding about what the phrase "separation of church and state" actually means). That makes it either a religious or political debate, and not a factual or practical one.

As far as violence and religion. It's not religions fault that wars are fought over it, it's people's fault. And atheists are people too. Anyone who believes that they are absolutely right must at the same time believe that everyone else is absolutely wrong. The results of such thinking are unavoidable.

As far as Sunday morning TV goes. If an atheist can get a TV deal, or buy a slot on a network, then he/she can air their show. It will stay on as long as enough people want to watch it. I've got 300 channels, a DVD player, a PS3, a computer, and I can go outside any time I want. Nobody can make me watch anything I don't want to. I'm guessing you have other options too. If you only want to watch what you want to watch when you want to watch it, then all you need are a lot of DVDs or your own TV network.

I'm not quite sure exactly what Stephen Hawking believes or doesn't, but from what I've read - despite whatever title somebody sticks on the article - he isn't saying that god certainly didn't start the universe, only that he believes he's found theoretical evidence that he didn't have to, in order for it to exist.

As far as proof, I'm sure the math works out and the numbers all add up to get to what he's claiming, even if there's no practical way to build a model or demonstrate it in a lab... which is far more than can be said for most religions or religious beliefs.

I am not going to pretend to know what Hawking believes. But I can say that there is no mathematical equation that can explain the Big Bang Theory, and it is highly unlikely that there ever will be. To boil it down to it's essence, the Big Bang Theory states that there was nothing and it existed nowhere. Somehow, the nothing that was nowhere exploded and became everything that is everywhere.That isn't any more believable than the idea that an omnipotent being created everything. And yes we could keep the chicken or the egg debate going perpetually re: if there was an omnipotent being then what created him/her/it. Hawking states that- "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing." The problem is that, according to accepted science, gravity does not exist without mass, and nothing has no mass.

I'm not so sure about that one either, since, as I mentioned above, theoretical physics is based in mathematical calculations, and observations on how things work. It's an extrapolation based in fact, even if sometimes those facts turn out to be other than what they first appear. In which case the theory is either revised, or thrown out altogether, once the accuracy - or lack thereof - is discovered.

I don't remember ever having heard of any religion revising it's self and saying "oops, wrong god", or "we have evidence now that says our previous beliefs were in error".

Ever since the climategate fiasco, I'm not going to put my faith in an unerring adherence to the scientific method from many scientists. The problem with theoretical physics is that, since none of the theories can be proven(and few disproven for that matter due to a fairly staggering lack of understanding of such things), scientists develop an end idea and work to show how it might be plausible. They don't start from a known point and scientifically work outwardly from that point.

Many religions have come and gone over the millenia, some of the current ones will too. And new religions, like atheism, will take their places.

I mean, constantly being told you're going to hell for not agreeing with someone tends to make a person more than a little... grumpy and disgusted, and inclined to give as good - or better - that they've been getting.

Is anybody really constantly being told they're going to hell? People get mad about what they want to get mad about. Some people might even be able to convince themselves that they really are constantly being told they're going to hell, but it ain't true. I don't subscribe to any religion, but I can't remember anybody telling me I was going to hell because of it.

Hey, don't climb down on my account... At least you haven't just been throwing the same old material at everybody.

Nothing wrong with a spirited debate. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I have all of the answers. I'm smart enough to know that I don't.

[Guest trigem]

I hear a lot of talk about judging,condemning,

( Jesus told the saints not to judge the hearts of men, But bring the the Word)

Let's go to the source and see what Jesus Said; ( I'm not preaching, Jesus is )

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

(John 3:16-21)

Edited September 5, 2010 by trigem

[Guest Letereat!]

I've also never heard of 2 different groups of atheists going to war over which of them was more correct in their disbelief. :-\I must admit that I did have a religious person show up at my house several years ago to try to give me the gospel, I declined and he left. I still haven't felt the need to get a sign. USMCJC

I used to politely decline as well,but one day last summer i was in a particularly good and tollerant mood and i decided to entertain them and invited them in ,they were JWs. It was rather devious of me and i did feel a bit guilty later;but i proceeded to philosiphise in a manner with them that I intended would make their heads begin to quiver then i started to subltely offend them with consumption of Beer, and made sure they saw my budy Christ Statue. Went to the trouble and broke out the Strongs Exaustive Concordances and Josephus etc, Naves and other topical bibles and other refrence materials and pontificated about the falacy of hell yada yada yada, hour or less is all it took b4 they had to vamoooose, never seen em in the hood again. Its my new comitment to peaceful "lets agree to disagree come on in tactic"

Edited September 5, 2010 by Letereat!

[Guest Letereat!]

I don't resort to insults or calling names, Just thoughts from the BIBLE:p

Sense many here are offended by the BIBLE, I used it in Hebrew & Greek..

Chill out

Didn't mean for it to come across that way for real. I got your meaning was just being sarcastic in reply. I truly respect your piousness and unshakeable faith. I do believe Christianity has a great deal of value and meaning to our country and it’s founding. I just believe that religion in general has become mangled and is misused and is wholly unrelated to spiritual peace, growth and real confidence in the guidance, council, wisdom and direction through the journey of life that is intended to be... but fails miserably at.

Chilled, did not mean to offend:)

Edited September 6, 2010 by Letereat!

[Guest Jamie]

Looks like trigem has been kidnapped by terrorists! Guess we need to put a recue mission together.

Do we gotta? Can't we just let 'em keep him? :-\

I'm sure they'll send him back eventually, all of their own accord.

[clarky07]

Hey, I said I didn't remember, not that it didn't ever happen. Besides, different denominations could be viewed as "changing their minds", but that's not exactly what I meant.

Might've been a bad example, but what I was getting at was it's very unlikely for, say, Christians to ever say "We were mistaken, Jesus is NOT the son of god, he's just another prophet".

Edit: Also, I just went back and scanned over the previous 29 pages of this thread. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anybody getting really angry over Christians changing their beliefs based on new information.

page 9-10 there is discussion to that point. as for changing our minds Jesus being the son of God, that wouldn't really be an adjusting of beliefs so much as removing the whole religion. I find that unlikely.

[Guest Jamie]

Just trying to get some to think more..

Jesus πλησιάζει αναθεωρήσουν τις απόψεις

That wooshing sound you head just about a foot higher than your head? That was the explanation for the exchange in Latin, between myself and Enfield.

I'll help you out a bit though... go watch the movie Tombstone. Then come back here and take a close look at mine and Enfield's avatars.

Who knows, maybe a light will go on for ya...

As for thinking, I don't have the time nor inclination to write the many volumes that I could on religion and that particular subject.

[Guest Jamie]

Sense many here are offended by the BIBLE...

There's another one that zoomed right over your head.

It's not the Bible that some are offended by, at least not directly. It's just a book... an inanimate object. A person can choose to pick it up and examine it, or pass it by. It won't care at all, or take any action at all, or protest in any fashion.

[Guest Jamie]

I must admit that I did have a religious person show up at my house several years ago to try to give me the gospel, I declined and he left. I still haven't felt the need to get a sign.

Some atheists are in a perpetual verbal war with anyone who disagrees with them, just like some (insert denomination here) are. I mean are the Ten Commandments at a courthouse really hurting anyone? I don't have a problem with any of the ten. It's not about content, it's about ideology(and a complete misunderstanding about what the phrase "separation of church and state" actually means). That makes it either a religious or political debate, and not a factual or practical one.

As far as violence and religion. It's not religions fault that wars are fought over it, it's people's fault. And atheists are people too. Anyone who believes that they are absolutely right must at the same time believe that everyone else is absolutely wrong. The results of such thinking are unavoidable.

As far as Sunday morning TV goes. If an atheist can get a TV deal, or buy a slot on a network, then he/she can air their show. It will stay on as long as enough people want to watch it. I've got 300 channels, a DVD player, a PS3, a computer, and I can go outside any time I want. Nobody can make me watch anything I don't want to. I'm guessing you have other options too. If you only want to watch what you want to watch when you want to watch it, then all you need are a lot of DVDs or your own TV network.

I am not going to pretend to know what Hawking believes. But I can say that there is no mathematical equation that can explain the Big Bang Theory, and it is highly unlikely that there ever will be. To boil it down to it's essence, the Big Bang Theory states that there was nothing and it existed nowhere. Somehow, the nothing that was nowhere exploded and became everything that is everywhere.That isn't any more believable than the idea that an omnipotent being created everything. And yes we could keep the chicken or the egg debate going perpetually re: if there was an omnipotent being then what created him/her/it. Hawking states that- "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing." The problem is that, according to accepted science, gravity does not exist without mass, and nothing has no mass.

Ever since the climategate fiasco, I'm not going to put my faith in an unerring adherence to the scientific method from many scientists. The problem with theoretical physics is that, since none of the theories can be proven(and few disproven for that matter due to a fairly staggering lack of understanding of such things), scientists develop an end idea and work to show how it might be plausible. They don't start from a known point and scientifically work outwardly from that point.

Many religions have come and gone over the millenia, some of the current ones will too. And new religions, like atheism, will take their places.

Is anybody really constantly being told they're going to hell? People get mad about what they want to get mad about. Some people might even be able to convince themselves that they really are constantly being told they're going to hell, but it ain't true. I don't subscribe to any religion, but I can't remember anybody telling me I was going to hell because of it.

Nothing wrong with a spirited debate. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I have all of the answers. I'm smart enough to know that I don't.

This one's gonna take more than I've currently got to respond to it properly... I'm taking a bit of a cold and really don't have the attention span or patience I usually do.

So, I'll either come back to it later, or should the thread be locked or something, shoot you a PM when I'm back to what might laughingly be referred to as "normal".

One thing though concerning Climatology... It relies heavily on statistic and statistical analysis. And as Mark Twain said "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics".

Anyway, that's all for me, for now. I'll "see" you folks later.

[clarky07]

Didn't mean for it to come across that way for real. I got your meaning was just being sarcastic in reply. I truly respect your piousness and unshakeable faith. I do believe Christianity has a great deal of value and meaning to our country and it’s founding. I just believe that religion in general has become mangled and is misused and is wholly unrelated to spiritual peace, growth and real confidence in the guidance, council, wisdom and direction through the journey of life that is intended to be... but fails miserably at. It has come a long way in many ways though.

I actually completely agree. You have to remember though that everybody is still human. People make mistakes, and lots of people are hypocrites. I know atheists that are fine people, and I know people who claim to Christians that are just terrible. The reverse is true as well.

One thing to keep in mind. A Christian who is "pushing" their faith on you is doing so only because they care about about you. If the Christians are right, then they believe you could be spending eternity in hell and they don't want that for you. If the atheists are right, well it doesn't really matter how other people act. Hence you don't get atheists pushing their beliefs on you.

[Guest Jamie]

page 9-10 there is discussion to that point.

Ah, okay... I guess I just missed it.

[Guest trigem]

There's another one that zoomed right over your head.

It's not the Bible that some are offended by, at least not directly. It's just a book... an inanimate object. A person can choose to pick it up and examine it, or pass it by. It won't care at all, or take any action at all, or protest in any fashion.

I understand your point, To me

The Bible Holds the Living Word of GOD, It's not just another book, It holds every thing that pertains to Life...

[Guest mosinon]

I understand your point, To me

The Bible Holds the Living Word of GOD, It's not just another book, It holds every thing that pertains to Life...

Interesting and perhaps true. But I'm not worried about the Bible, I am worried about how the fallible interpret it. What if someone made a prediction about hurricane earl or something? And it didn't turn out to be true. Would such a thing cause them to reevaluate their interpretation?

[Guest Letereat!]

I'm sure they'll send him back eventually, all of their own accord. Jamie

:taser:Personally speaking I have never trusted people in Togas anyway, Men Or Women;). And Ill swear to anything(proof or not) I think will make me a buck or two:rolleyes:..... or just to see what kind of person im dealing with from time to time.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Letereat!

[Guest trigem]

Interesting and perhaps true. But I'm not worried about the Bible, I am worried about how the fallible interpret it. What if someone made a prediction about hurricane earl or something? And it didn't turn out to be true. Would such a thing cause them to reevaluate their interpretation?

+1

I think those whom make such statements should be careful to fully understand what the Word says,

If one were to say, thus says the Lord , such & such will happen this day and it doesn't, then this person is a false prophet, true prophets are always right on...

As for forcing Israel to give up land for peace,

The Bible says; For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

(or like poking your finger in God's eye, it's going to make Him angry)

(Zec 2:8)

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

(Deu 7:6)

The Arab's (Palestinians) want to destroy Israel, but God will not allow it.

But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel.

(2Ch 6:6)

This is the direction that John McTernan was going when he talked about Earl, not that it was going to do major damage but, could depending how the peace talks go, when we force Israel to give up land, we (according to God's word) are touching God's first chosen people and the land He gave them...

John, in his book, As America Has done to Israel, John documents America's history as we have dealt with Israel, Good or bad, it is all verifiable history and is amazing what John has discovered about God & Israel (No, I have no connection with John other than reading his documentation of history:rolleyes:)

Side Note: looks like the Bible see's a nuke war coming over Jerusalem

And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

(Zec 14:12)

[Guest Jamie]

A little kerosene on the fire...

From George Carlin:

Oh, and be warned... this is Carlin, so I shouldn't have to warn you of the LANGUAGE.

However, for anyone who's been on another planet, or deep under a rock for the past half century... DON'T CLICK THE LINKS IF FOUL LANGUAGE OFFENDS YOU!!!

George Carlin - Religion is bull****.

And...

This should keep things going until I feel a little more talkative.

And yes, I could've embedded the vids, but I wanted to give folks a chance to avoid them if they so choose.

[Smith]

A little kerosene on the fire...

From George Carlin:

Oh, and be warned... this is Carlin, so I shouldn't have to warn you of the LANGUAGE.

However, for anyone who's been on another planet, or deep under a rock for the past half century... DON'T CLICK THE LINKS IF FOUL LANGUAGE OFFENDS YOU!!!

George Carlin - Religion is bull****.

And...

This should keep things going until I feel a little more talkative.

And yes, I could've embedded the vids, but I wanted to give folks a chance to avoid them if they so choose.

Man! you must be running out of material.

[Guest Jamie]

Man! you must be running out of material.

You can't possibly be so dense as to believe that.

As I mentioned on a previous thread, I detest fall weather, and that whole transitional thing... It leaves me feeling like hammered .

So, no direct arguments from me on much of anything, until I feel a bit better.

However, until I do, there's still a bunch of folks who came before me who can keep y'all occupied.

Oh look, here's one now:

Yes, I know they lack my... charm? .. but you'll just have to make do.