DA / SA vs hammer for USPSA

[Square Wheels]

I am new to shooting.

I have owned two polymer, hammer 9mm.  I just sold one and am looking to replace it.

I want to get an all metal gun and start training for USPSA competition.

I don't know what division I'll end up in.  Production seems too hard without optics.  Open seems too hard because it seems there are almost no limitations, I hear these people are crazy fast.  So, I'll likely end up somewhere without a magwell, but with optics.

I like to do online research, there are not a lot of ranges around me, and there are not a lot of options for trying out guns.

Since I have only shot a hammer style, DA / SA is intriguing, and seems to be very popular in competition.

I am looking at the CZ Shadow 2 Orange - optics ready, likely put a Holosun 507 on it.

My biggest concern is I do a fair amount of dry firing with my hammer style and it feels safe to put back in the holster.  I also like to do draws and two shots and re-holster and run that for 5 - 10 rounds in a session.  Again, I am very concious of my finger and it feels "safe".

I understand a lot of accidental discharges are human error - well, I'm human, and new.

Is a SA / DA just as "safe" doing the live fire drill I mentioned above?  I want to be able to re-hoslter and it seems like the only fast way to do that is with it cocked.  Decoking (that CZ does not have a decocker) or putting the safety on would make the next draw much harder.

Please overlook the ignorance's I displayed, and if you want, correct them.  I'd appreciate not being bashed for asking dumb questions. 

[ken_mays]

In USPSA, while holstered, if the hammer is cocked, the safety must be on.   If the hammer is decocked, the safety isn’t required to be on (and most pistols aren’t designed to operate that way anyway).

If you want to run single action drills from the holster, you’d better get used to using the safety.  Reholstering a cocked pistol is a recipe for disaster and you’re likely to have one sooner or later.  Personally I always found the CZ safety too awkward to operate so I stuck with other designs.  

Edited Saturday at 04:52 PM by ken_mays

[Square Wheels]

4 minutes ago, ken_mays said:

In USPSA, while holstered, if the hammer is cocked, the safety must be on.   If the hammer is decocked, the safety isn’t required to be on (and most pistols aren’t designed to operate that way anyway).

 

Thank you, I guess it was a many part question.

Part of what I do on range training is load a magazine, draw and shoot two, then holster, then repeat 5 or more times.  I use a shot timer to see if I get better over time.  I think this is my biggest concern.

[ken_mays]

 There is no time pressure to reholster.  The clock stops on the last shot fired.  It may be argued that it’s safer to decock before reholstering but then you must necessarily fire the next drill DA on the first shot.   But it’s perfectly ok to put safety on and reholster between shot strings.   Not really sure what your specific concern is.  

[Square Wheels]

Just now, ken_mays said:

 There is no time pressure to reholster.  The clock stops on the last shot fired.  It may be argued that it’s safer to decock before reholstering but then you must necessarily fire the next drill DA on the first shot.   But it’s perfectly ok to put safety on and reholster between shot strings.   Not really sure what your specific concern is.  

I guess it's the way I set the shot timer, the 5 or more "rounds" are all on one "program".

Beep - Draw and shoot two.
Reholster - several second pause.
Beep - Draw and shoot two.
repeat for as many rounds as I programmed it for.

For USPSA, I now see where my thinking was wrong, as I'd never reholster a gun with ammo.  Just after make ready, and that is not cocked.

I do thank you for your help and patience as I try to understand the differences between what I've been using and possibly moving to DA / SA.

---

Do you have suggestions for an all metal gun?

I plan to look at this at a gun shop in a few weeks, and have heard from at least one person and they do not like the safety.  Hence the reason I want to hold it.  There are no large gun shops near me, I'll go to Nashville for this which is a couple hours away.

https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-shadow-2-orange/

[TNman207]

I was new to USPSA shooting a few years ago and started with a CZ Shadow 2 DA/SA. The pistol was better than I was, but the DA/SA action was not difficult to shoot, nor did I feel uncomfortable handling the pistol. The Range Officers are always very helpful. Have fun!

[ken_mays]

The Shadow 2 is about the best thing going for a DA/SA 9mm.   You could shoot that in Production or Carry Optics, first shot in DA mode.  
 

if you start with cocked hammer and safety on, I think that will put you into Limited division.  
 

it sounds like you first need to decide how you want to shoot, and each USPSA division requirements.  Then once you decide on a division and gun, you can practice the appropriate drills.  

[deerslayer]

I'm not a fan of DA/SA, but a lot of people are.  A Shadow 2/Shadow 2 Orange with the hammer down would work well in Production or Carry Optics and is probably currently the most popular gun for those two divisions.  Keep in mind that it doesn't have a decocker and you have to manually lower the hammer before holstering.  This is a non-issue, but it freaks out some.  

A Shadow 2 could start cocked and locked (hammer cocked, safety on) in Limited or Limited Optics and shoot first shot SA.  

CZ has three basic flavors of safeties and I can use the stock Shadow 2 safety with the shelf just like a 1911.  Others find using that safety like a SA to be awkward.  The flat safeties are not meant to be moved on and off and really serve no purpose, other than to be low profile and stay out of the way.  They make a third style with a shelf that is too low and is not very user friendly.  

I had a non-optics ready Shadow 2 Orange and it would would absolutely shoot the lights out.  

[papa61]

Your first statement holds a lot of weight. In my own opinion, you should stick with a single action or DAO at this point and master one before going to SA/DA whether it be hammer or striker fired. The switch between first round DA and second SA is a skill requiring a lot of practice.

A note on your reholster method, Rule #1, treat every firearm as if it is loaded. I wouldn't reholster without engaging the safety or decocking the pistol.

I own a couple of striker fired pistols but prefer hammer fired myself and for competition I'd choose SA hammer fired every day.

[chances R]

Lee Weems of RangeMaster has a very interesting podcast out today just on the DA/SA subject.  You can locate this under 'That Weems Guy".  Langdon ane Rehn: A Reasonable Discussion.   His guests are very knowledgable, Karl Rehn and Ernest Langdon make some great points on this subject be it for CCW or competition.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/that-weems-guy/id1575361538?i=1000719480275

 

[Square Wheels]

3 hours ago, papa61 said:

A note on your reholster method, Rule #1, treat every firearm as if it is loaded. I wouldn't reholster without engaging the safety or decocking the pistol.

Currently, I only have a Sig M17x, so part polymer, light, and no safety.  As I mentioned above, I like to do draws and two shots and re-holster and run that for 5 - 10 rounds in a session.  Again, I am very conscious of my finger, and it feels "safe".

[chances R]

34 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

Currently, I only have a Sig M17x, so part polymer, light, and no safety.  As I mentioned above, I like to do draws and two shots and re-holster and run that for 5 - 10 rounds in a session.  Again, I am very conscious of my finger, and it feels "safe".

Since you brought it up.  Yes, finger dicipline is of utmost importance especially when holstering.  However, clothing, elastic tightners around the bottom of jackets also must be certain to be clear of holster.  With any handgun, but especially those that have had trigger work, amatuer or professional and reduced pull weight it is important to use proper technique when reholstering appendix position.  I see it all the time with IDPA.  One should slightly flex the knees, forward thrust the pelvis and slowly and visually place the gun in the holster.  That will angle the muzzle away from the body and feet in the event of a ND body parts will be missed.  Sloppy and fast reholstering is a dangerous event.

[Thearmededucator]

I really applaud your decision to get into USPSA; I think competition is the #1 way to improve. 
 

However, if you are concerned about holster work, I think you need a training course first. Holstering a loaded gun is the #1 most likely way to have a ND that causes injury. That is something you need to feel 100% capable and comfortable with beforehand. 
 

Besides the 320, which is a serious safety concern and should be discarded in my opinion, holstering is the same process regardless of make.
 

Finish shooting, activate safeties/decockers, slowly and deliberately holster.