My best group out of my reloads..

[Eric]

Thanks guys!!

[Guest 2HOW]

VERY NICE GROUP , are you a product of Appleseed ? The Appleseed Project

[9teeneleven]

No joke. I am usually a 5 shot advocate, but if you get 3 holes touching at 200yards, that says all that need to be said.

[Guest m&p40]

• Main Entry: 1group
  
• Pronunciation: \ˈgrüp\
  
• Function: noun
  
• Usage: often attributive
  
• Etymology: French groupe, from Italian gruppo, by-form of groppo knot, tangle, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German kropf craw — more at crop
  
• Date: 1686
  

1 : two or more figures forming a complete unit in a composition

According to Merriam - Webster dictionary, 3 fits the bill.

The Trouble With 3-Shot Groups

(The distant prequel to The Trouble With Tribbles)

Heres an example and a little something to think about the next time someone is bragging on 3 bullet holes

As our story begins, we find our Hero sitting down at the shooting bench on the 100 yard line at his local range. Our Hero is a real Internet Commando. He has watched the movie Heat 87 times, is registered on all of the important Internet firearms forums, knows the difference between a “clip†and a “magazine†and attends every local gun show without fail.

His latest acquisition from the local gun show is a 16†barreled Frankengun that originally belonged to a Delta Force operator who was at the Battle of Mogadishu. (He could tell you the name of the operator, but then he’d have to k……well, you know.) The seller at the gun show let our Hero in on another secret too. Eugene Stoner himself helped the Delta operator assemble this particular AR-15.

Our hero settles into position on the bench and fires his first 3-shot group. (He only fires 3-shot groups because everyone from the Internet knows that you only have to fire 3-shot groups to test the accuracy of your rifle and ammunition.)

His first group forms a nice little triangle at the bottom of the 10-ring. Our Hero just knew this was going to be a good day. After all, he was using that XM193 ammunition. A former SEAL who was selling beef jerky at the gun show had told our Hero that the SEALs used ammo just like XM193 in Viet Nam and that a single shot in the buttocks from this ammo would “blow your head clean off!â€

At the cease fire our Hero checks his first target. (Our Hero’s targets are NRA High Power type targets reduced for 100 yards. The X-ring measures 1.5†and the 10-ring measures 3.5â€). Much to his satisfaction, his first group measures 1.16â€, almost minute of angle! Now most Internet Commando wannabees would have stopped right there and gone home and spent the next 3 hours posting threads on the internet about their great accomplishment, but not our Hero. He makes the decision….to fire a second group!

group one

Our Hero has read reports of other Internet Commandos who have been able to achieve sub-minute of angle groups using XM193. After all, this ammo uses “Full Metal Jacket†bullets and is made to “Mil-spec.â€

Our Hero carefully watches the bench-rest shooter three lanes down and only fires immediately after the bench-rester does. He does this for three shots and then checks his target at the next cease fire.

Our Hero measures this target three times just to be sure. The group measures 0.93â€! Hooah, a sub-minute of angle group! Our Hero is now one of the few, the proud, the real Internet Commandos who can claim to shoot sub-minute of angle groups using XM193!

group two

There’s just one little problem with that second group our Hero fired. It is centered in a different location on the target than the first one. The second group is centered 0.12†above the center of the target and the first group is centered 1.44†below the center of the target. Hmmm…

Well our Hero is a real Internet Commando so he can’t let details bother him. After all, sub-minute of angle is sub-minute of angle!

As our Hero starts to pack up his targets, something in the back of his mind starts to nag at him. He recalls the reports of the other Internet Commandos. They didn’t just shoot sub-minute of angle groups with XM193; they did it “all day long.â€

Well, not wishing to be looked down upon by the other Internet Commandos our Hero decides to shoot one more 3-shoot group. After all, if his carbine and ammo could shoot two, sub-minute of angle groups, they could surely do it “all day long.â€

So, our Hero settles back into position and again taking his cue from the bench-rester fires a third 3-shot group. Upon retrieving his third target and measuring the group our Hero can not believe his eyes. The group measures 2.5â€! How can this be possible? He was using XM193 and not just any XM193. It was the fabled LOT #3, the most accurate and hard to come by of all the lots, yet this third group was larger than the first two groups combined! Hmmm… Our Hero wonders how he can ever show his avatar on an Internet forum again after firing such a group with XM193.

group three

Then, slowly our Hero starts to recall a word he has heard mentioned many times before on his favorite Internet forum. It starts with the letter F. Hmm . . .F . . .Fl . . . Flyer! That’s it, flyer! That low shot down at seven o’clock on the target is a flyer! It’s not the fault of the gun or the ammo, it’s a flyer. It's caused by user error, the loose nut behind the stock, the wind, the sun or any other excuse that can be dreamt of in your philosophy, but not the rifle or ammo.

The flyer is something to be discounted as if it never happened. (Why be concerned with reality when you are an Internet Commando?) Since that shot is discounted, why not discount that whole group as if it never happened? (After all, isn’t that what an Internet Commando does?) Our Hero decides to discount the entire group and throws the target in the trash. He makes a solemn vow to never mention this group to anyone. After all, he is a real Internet Commando.

Upon returning home our Hero makes all the usual posts on the Internet about his sub-minute of angle groups using XM193. True to his solemn vow, he makes no mention of his 2.5†group. At no time does he mention that these groups were 3-shot groups. Nor does he make any mention of the fact that the groups were centered in different locations on the target.

Our Hero ends his day wondering if his grandson, or great-grandson or even great great-grandson will remember the accomplishments of the real Internet Commandos or if their contributions to the shooting world will eventually be lost in time? He even wonders what his progeny might someday be named, James or possibly Tiberius? Hmmm…

[Good_Steward]

I'll give you this, you're definitely thorough when you want to make a point. I understand what you're saying, but a .2" group at 100 yards is impressive as all get out, even with "just" three shots. Here is one I shot yesterday that you should appreciate, and can be attested to by another TGO member. This is a .22-250 at only 100 yards, but still a .445" 10 shot group (counting my "flyer at the bottom left, of course )

Edited August 16, 2009 by Good_Steward

[Guest GunTroll]

Nice job OP! Whether its one,three,five,ten, or a hundred! If they landed that close with three then your good to go! Groups on paper are over rated anyways. It only takes one to do the job:death:

[Guest m&p40]

I'll give you this, you're definitely thorough when you want to make a point. I understand what you're saying, but a .2" group at 100 yards is impressive as all get out, even with "just" three shots. Here is one I shot yesterday that you should appreciate, and can be attested to by another TGO member. This is a .22-250 at only 100 yards, but still a .445" 10 shot group (counting my "flyer at the bottom left, of course )

Now thats a nice "group"

[Good_Steward]

Maybe. It's about halfway into "Load Development" for my .22-250, and I started with three shot groups to determine a group of loads to work from. I think that Eric's is very impressive, regardless of if it's three shots or 10 shots. I think he found a sweet spot in his loads, and I encourage him to keep on shooting three shot groups if that's what he deems appropriate. I think that's the only point I was trying to make in the 3 versus 5 - 10 argument.

[Guest m&p40]

his is nice but its like an unwritten rule to give people hell over 3 shot groups. lol! When I first started shooting years ago, I tried bragging on a 3 shot group to some of the best and got laughed clean off the range, I started shooting 5-10 shot groups and got a lot better because of it, its a form of encouragement. Im glad they gave me hell or I wouldnt be were I am today. Before that I wouldnt shoot no more than 3 because it was hard to shoot a 10 shot group and have it as small as 3. Which goes back to my internet commando story.

Edited August 16, 2009 by m&p40

[deerslayer]

So, if he shot a one hole five shot group after shooting a 3" five shot group that he forgot to tell us about, how is this any better than three shots groups?

[DaveTN]

Which goes back to my internet commando story.

I was glad to see someone posting a target from some real shooting, instead of “Look at my 3 yard group!â€

[Guest m&p40]

So, if he shot a one hole five shot group after shooting a 3" five shot group that he forgot to tell us about, how is this any better than three shots groups?

I can tell you dont shoot much for accuracy, if you dont know the answer then dont worry about it.

[Eric]

Well Like a dumb dumb I changed stocks to see if Would like another better and the groups are just not the ssme.. Looks like I have to shoot with the old stock again next weekend to see what I can do with 5 shots!

If i am back to the tighter groups the new stock will be up for sale.

By the way that is an awesome 10 shot group!! Shot on a bench?

[Good_Steward]

Yeah, shot from a bench with a Harris BR-2 bipod. I think I should post some 3 shot groups, as well.

WAIT!

As luck would have it, I have a few 3 shot group pics that I'm damn proud of as well! .192" @ 100

These are from my .308 VTR during load development. I'm sure M&P will bust my azz for posting 3 shot groups, though.

[deerslayer]

I can tell you dont shoot much for accuracy, if you dont know the answer then dont worry about it.

In other words, there is no difference.

[Eric]

Cool, I am glad to see it was shot from a pod... Those groups are awesome from a pod!!! I guess I was asking if it was from one of those bench rest contraptions... great shooting for sure!

I am also shooting from a pod and using a sock full of rice in the rear. I am holding the rice in my left hand fist.

[Eric]

Alrighty then... My best two 3 shot groups at 100 yards..

Both .19" and all shots for the day were under 1 moa. I tried a new load. I was given 100 Hornady 150 GR BTSP bullets and loaded them up with 42 grains of IMR 4064. I had a OAL of 2.76" . My gun really , really liked them. Better then the 168 matchkings for sure.

Yeah I know, pics right.

This was taken with the iphone sorry for the quality.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Eric, now that you have it working.. you need to come shoot with us at ORSA in the 600 and 1000 yard matches..

[MikeW]

Congrats

Damn nice shoot'n

[Eric]

Alrighty then... My best two 3 shot groups at 100 yards..

Both .19" and all shots for the day were under 1 moa. I tried a new load. I was given 100 Hornady 150 GR BTSP bullets and loaded them up with 42 grains of IMR 4064. I had a OAL of 2.76" . My gun really , really liked them. Better then the 168 matchkings for sure.

Yeah I know, pics right.

This was taken with the iphone sorry for the quality.

I actually measured these groups wrong... I re measured them by measuring the outside and subtracting bullet size.

The first group in the picture is actually .17" and the second is .14"