to see, or not to see.....

[Guest canynracer]

ok,

I am getting my butt kicked in another forum right now for asking a simple question...I know, I know its a heated debate, but I want to get input from the open vs concealed thing...

Concealers state basically this:

1. Element of suprise

2. less attention

3. why be a mark?

4. possiblity of someone grabbing your gun.

Open says

1. Deterrant

2. comfort

3. easier to get to

4. Because I can (yes, I embellished this one a bit)

I basically asked them about public reaction, and asked if they wear some form of ID like a open carry badge (yes I know about the impersonating debate)

I just want to know if the concealers are ALWAYS concealed? if so, HOW concealed...if its too hot for a jacket, and you use your t-shirt, doesnt it still look obvious?

I 99 sure I will be concealed...but, I will be TRYING to conceal a Sigma it is not easily concealed, until I can afford a compact gun, do you all have any suggestions?

[dralarms]

I do not carry open, however I do carry my firearm in a "carry lock" belt holster with my shirt pulled down over it, if it become exposed I simply cover it back up, No I don't worry about it. Around the house I don't worry about covering up but it's my property. Met a LE off duty Friday night and he had a wilson combat custom in a oc holster. To beat it all he was going into outback , must be nice.

I am not worried about someone grabbing my firearm, it in a "carrylock" holster and you have to push a release to get it out (you can yank it out but it take a lot of force).

[Guest Boomhower]

Let's don't start another OC vs CC debate here again. I think we've had enough of them.

As for concealed still being obivious....My carry weapon is not any smaller than your sigma. Actually, I have a sigma and have carried it as well. I carry IWB about 3:30 and the ONLY thing I had to increase was my shirt size. I went to an XL for more length. I'm 6' 225lbs.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Open says

1. Deterrant

2. comfort

3. easier to get to

4. Because I can (yes, I embellished this one a bit)

1. I'd honestly say this draws more attention, than successfully acting as a deterrant. Not only from the general public and LEO's, but also from morons with tough guy syndrome. You would think that people with the slightest bit of intelligence would steer clear of someone packing, but we've all encountered or seen those geniuses who choose the biggest guy in the crowd to try and prove something to themselves or their buddies... same with a gun. Someone might see you as a cowboy, and try to challenge you on it. In this day of age stupidity is rampant, and carrying out in the open just paints a huge bullseye on you in several different ways. Why draw the unneeded attention?

2. This all depends on the gun you carry and the holster you choose. You can find a holster perfectly suited for concealment that will be just as comfortable -- or moreso -- as open carry. Likewise, you can find holsters as comfortable -- or more -- than concealed carry rigs. Honestly, this is a moot point. Careful shopping, researching, and/or trial and error will provide you with an excellent and comfortable setup, whichever means of carry you choose.

3. I will agree with this statement.

4. I also agree with this statement, as long as your city/county/state of residence allows it. I'm not sure that all territories allow open carry. I thought I saw a thread on here, or maybe somewhere else, where the OP stated they weren't allowed to open carry firearms.

---

In my opinion, open carry is in no way a deterrant. I've also seen the badges you refer to, available from several vendors, and I think those are an even worse idea. Bottom line... why show the gun to anyone? It proves nothing and honestly just poses more questions, and draws more attention, than you ever need. You know you have the weapon on you... you know how proficient you are with it and (should know) the legality of when you can and can't exercise use of it... no one else needs to know any of those things or be aware that you have it. Are there times that carrying concealed are a pain in the ass? Yep. Are there times/seasons where it sucks to do so? Yep. But those are the cons of carrying a firearm, in my opinion. It comes with the right and option to carry.

You'll always have people debating this topic. You'll never receive THE right answer. Do whatever works for you, and you feel the most comfortable doing. Personally, I'm going to avoid any potential hassle for myself and those around me, and let the rest of the world go on with their normal routines none-the-wiser.

[Guest canynracer]

Let's don't start another OC vs CC debate here again. I think we've had enough of them.

As for concealed still being obivious....My carry weapon is not any smaller than your sigma. Actually, I have a sigma and have carried it as well. I carry IWB about 3:30 and the ONLY thing I had to increase was my shirt size. I went to an XL for more length. I'm 6' 225lbs.

That was my point...dont want to debate it...just new to the carry permit and looking for some help..

what holster do you use for your Sigma? I would rather go IWB as well... I am 5"10 190lbs

[ZZRguy]

ok,

I 99 sure I will be concealed...but, I will be TRYING to conceal a Sigma it is not easily concealed, until I can afford a compact gun, do you all have any suggestions?

Have you thought about wearing a vest, WalMart had some cheap fishing vest that does not look bad at all. Hero-Gear sells some 5.11 tactical vest.

I hope this helps.

[Guest canynracer]

1. I'd honestly say this draws more attention, than successfully acting as a deterrant. Not only from the general public and LEO's, but also from morons with tough guy syndrome. You would think that people with the slightest bit of intelligence would steer clear of someone packing, but we've all encountered or seen those geniuses who choose the biggest guy in the crowd to try and prove something to themselves or their buddies... same with a gun. Someone might see you as a cowboy, and try to challenge you on it. In this day of age stupidity is rampant, and carrying out in the open just paints a huge bullseye on you in several different ways. Why draw the unneeded attention?

2. This all depends on the gun you carry and the holster you choose. You can find a holster perfectly suited for concealment that will be just as comfortable -- or moreso -- as open carry. Likewise, you can find holsters as comfortable -- or more -- than concealed carry rigs. Honestly, this is a moot point. Careful shopping, researching, and/or trial and error will provide you with an excellent and comfortable setup, whichever means of carry you choose.

3. I will agree with this statement.

4. I also agree with this statement, as long as your city/county/state of residence allows it. I'm not sure that all territories allow open carry. I thought I saw a thread on here, or maybe somewhere else, where the OP stated they weren't allowed to open carry firearms.

---

In my opinion, open carry is in no way a deterrant. I've also seen the badges you refer to, available from several vendors, and I think those are an even worse idea. Bottom line... why show the gun to anyone? It proves nothing and honestly just poses more questions, and draws more attention, than you ever need. You know you have the weapon on you... you know how proficient you are with it and (should know) the legality of when you can and can't exercise use of it... no one else needs to know any of those things or be aware that you have it. Are there times that carrying concealed are a pain in the ass? Yep. Are there times/seasons where it sucks to do so? Yep. But those are the cons of carrying a firearm, in my opinion. It comes with the right and option to carry.

You'll always have people debating this topic. You'll never receive THE right answer. Do whatever works for you, and you feel the most comfortable doing. Personally, I'm going to avoid any potential hassle for myself and those around me, and let the rest of the world go on with their normal routines none-the-wiser.

I agree with you on the attention..I certainly dont want that! especially in front of my family...hopefully I can get a decent holster so I can properly conceal this sigma of mine...LOL

[Guest canynracer]

Have you thought about wearing a vest, WalMart had some cheap fishing vest that does not look bad at all. Hero-Gear sells some 5.11 tactical vest.

I hope this helps.

thanks for the input!!! I am hoping that i can find some IWB or on the back holster that will help...oh, and I am ALSO hoping that the freaking winter comes and gets really cold so I can wear a jacket and not worry about it!!

[ZZRguy]

I do not know where you live but if you live in Nashville area Guns & Leather has these holsters for $25 and if you get a left hand holster it works as a small of the back holster.

http://www.donhume.com/Products/ProductsPage.cfm?ProductID=35

[Guest canynracer]

this looks good...I am in Memphis, but as soon as I get my permit in the mail...I will look for an excuse to travel...LOL

[Guest Boomhower]

what holster do you use for your Sigma? I would rather go IWB as well

thanks for the input!!! I am hoping that i can find some IWB or on the back holster that will help

I used a galco OWB that was actually made for the Beretta PX4, but it worked for my couger, and worked pretty well for the sigma. I now have a UBG striker 1 IWB for my couger, and the sigma will fit it, but I wouldn't want to carry it too much like that. It's not molded to the sigma and wouldn't take too long to mar up the gun. Here's a link to UBG's website. If you order a holster for your gun, I'd suggest you do it now before your permit arrives, since most of the have a back log.

http://www.ubgholsters.com/IWB.html

As for SOB holster's, I'd be careful there. If you were to be in a real fight and you get knocked on your butt, that's gonna really hurt. That's why I carry more around the side.

[Guest canynracer]

LMAO...good advice!!! thanks for your input, and your help!

Oh, and for the record, even though I got my butt kicked in the other forum, I am still going with the conceal...hopefully it all works out...

Just seems to me that the folks that open carry do so just to prove a point more than anything...I mean, in reading these forums they do stuff like plan an open carry night, where they deliberatley go to places for the attention...also they seem very defensive about the whole carry thing, open or not, tey speak about arguing with LE, and store owners..i mean, if I owned a business, and didnt want guns, and my sign didnt match the code PERFECTLY, I am not going to stick around and argue the law, I am going to point at my other sign that states "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" and send them on their way...yes, I know I lose the business, but really, why get so defensive, speak in a non-defensive manner without escalating the situation...9 times out of 10, the owner may not have known the peoper verbiage and you get to teack someone....

as far as law enforcement goes, why would you EVER want to piss a cop off?? when I finally do get my permit, I will ALWAYS hand the officer my DL and my HCP at the same time to let them know...it is a VERY rough job, and when I looked into it, it pays CRAP money (Compared to CA police) and how do they know you have a permit? even if you tell them that, BG' probably say the same thing....

anyway, thanks for all of your opinions, and I am looking forward to carrying.

Hopefully we will meet at the range one day for some "face time" forum discussions...

JJ

[Guest dotsun]

As for SOB holster's, I'd be careful there. If you were to be in a real fight and you get knocked on your butt, that's gonna really hurt. That's why I carry more around the side.

Not to mention how painful it would be to apply a triangle choke with a hunk of iron in your spine.

[Guest Phantom6]

canynracer wrote: I just want to know if the concealers are ALWAYS concealed? if so, HOW concealed...if its too hot for a jacket, and you use your t-shirt, doesnt it still look obvious?

The only time I'm not concealed is on my property or on the range. Like Boomhower I buy my t-shirts a size larger and wear 'em untucked. Just be sure that you stoop rather than bend over to pick things up otherwise the grip sticks up like a sore thumb. Then again, how does anyone else know that it is not a medical device like a Tinse Unit or colostomy bag? If you are a gunner then you automatically think gun but if you are not...

dralarms wrote: Met a LE off duty Friday night and he had a wilson combat custom in a oc holster. To beat it all he was going into outback , must be nice.

Unless I have missed something in the last week or so, in this state that is against the law. Of course, then again so is speeding.

----------------

The law makes no requirement for concealment but as I tell all of my HCP students, IMHO the sight of my pistol is the second to last surprise I want any BG to have in confronting me. The last of course being the loud bang accompanying the fearsome belch of fire which leads directly to that ballisticlly induced sub-cutaneous aperture opening up center mass in my target.

BTW, I carry a Springfield XD Service model owb in an Bianchi model 82 (CarryLock) at the 3:30 position. Whether its from under a t-shirt or a jacket, I'm pretty damned fast- because I practice drawing my pistol from concealment during dry practice sessions on a weakly basis.

Speed coming out of the holster is one thing but breaking the shot on the target must be determined because as Bill Jordan once said, "speed is fine but accuracy is final."

-------------

Roger that triangel choke problem. I'm short (5'10") so on guys like Boomhower for example I have to step into 'em and bring 'em up on my hip to get any help from gravity.

Watch out Boom!

[Guest db99wj]

I carry IWB with my XD service model, similar in size with your Sigma. I use the CTAC holster and love it, very comfortable and I can draw from it very quickly. I am concealed all the time, with the exception of the range.

As far as other people knowing that you are carrying, most will not, unless you are open, uncovered or have a very tight, thin shirt on and it is very obvious. Most of these people are not aware of anything around them, let alone you carrying.

I like my ctac because I can tuck my shirt in, if it needs to be.

With the holidays coming up, one thing to watch is around family, if you don't want them to know that you are carrying, watch the hugs, if they go toward your lower back, they can be surprised...I have got to get a good pocket holster for my snubby.

[Guest canynracer]

Unless I have missed something in the last week or so, in this state that is against the law. Of course, then again so is speeding.

----------------

he is off duty law enforcement...he is legal...

[Guest canynracer]

I carry IWB with my XD service model, similar in size with your Sigma. I use the CTAC holster and love it, very comfortable and I can draw from it very quickly. I am concealed all the time, with the exception of the range.

As far as other people knowing that you are carrying, most will not, unless you are open, uncovered or have a very tight, thin shirt on and it is very obvious. Most of these people are not aware of anything around them, let alone you carrying.

I like my ctac because I can tuck my shirt in, if it needs to be.

With the holidays coming up, one thing to watch is around family, if you don't want them to know that you are carrying, watch the hugs, if they go toward your lower back, they can be surprised...I have got to get a good pocket holster for my snubby.

Thanks DB!!! I will look into the ctacs, I would rather have leather so it doesnt scratch the crap outta my gun, and is a little better against sweat...but if the ctacs work the best, I will go with it...

Thanks again!

[Guest 270win]

I use a Galco IWB for a Glock 19 and find it very comfortable concealing, even with shorts and a T shirt as long as i have a good leather belt that is wide enough to support the handgun.

I personally conceal because you never know when you are mistakingly in a location where it is against the law to have a handgun, such as a restaurant or a building that is rarely posted pursuant to the law. If my handgun is concealed, then how will anyone know i am there with a handgun if the location does not have metal detectors? I do carry a snub nosed smith and wesson most of the time, so it is very very hard to tell i am carrying.

[Guest 270win]

I use a Galco IWB for a Glock 19 and find it very comfortable concealing, even with shorts and a T shirt as long as i have a good leather belt that is wide enough to support the handgun.

I personally conceal because you never know when you are mistakingly in a location where it is against the law to have a handgun, such as a restaurant or a building that is rarely posted pursuant to the law. If my handgun is concealed, then how will anyone know i am there with a handgun if the location does not have metal detectors? I do carry a snub nosed smith and wesson most of the time, so it is very very hard to tell i am carrying.

[Guest db99wj]

I use a Galco IWB for a Glock 19 and find it very comfortable concealing, even with shorts and a T shirt as long as i have a good leather belt that is wide enough to support the handgun.

I personally conceal because you never know when you are mistakingly in a location where it is against the law to have a handgun, such as a restaurant or a building that is rarely posted pursuant to the law. If my handgun is concealed, then how will anyone know i am there with a handgun if the location does not have metal detectors? I do carry a snub nosed smith and wesson most of the time, so it is very very hard to tell i am carrying.

You can say that again.....oh, you did!

The MTAC by Comp-Tac is a hybrid of kydex and leather....The CTAC has a kydex sweat guard whereas the MTAC has a leather. The CTAC did take a little getting use to, but it was not bad. The MTAC might very well be more comfortable because it has the leather sweat guard. I don't think you will go wrong with either.

As far as scratching, I have been using this holster since the spring and the only wear marks are on the front end of the slide, by the barrel and well, that is about it. Wear marks, IMO, are just that, they are going to happen, abuse is something else.

[Marswolf]

he is off duty law enforcement...he is legal...

Nope.

39-17-1305. Possession of firearm where alcoholic beverages are served. -

(a) It is an offense for a person to possess a firearm within the confines of a building open to the public where liquor, wine or other alcoholic beverages, as defined in § 57-3-101(a)(1)(A), or beer, as defined in § 57-6-102(1), are served for on premises consumption.

( A violation of this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

© The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to a person who is:

(1) In the actual discharge of official duties as a law enforcement officer, or is employed in the army, air force, navy, coast guard or marine service of the United States or any member of the Tennessee national guard in the line of duty and pursuant to military regulations, or is in the actual discharge of duties as a correctional officer employed by a penal institution; or

(2) On the person's own premises or premises under the person's control or who is the employee or agent of the owner of the premises with responsibility for protecting persons or property.

[Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1; 1990, ch. 1029, § 4; 2001, ch. 345, § 1.]

If you are off duty, you can't pack. Or maybe I missed a grin?

[Guest Boomhower]

Just be sure that you stoop rather than bend over to pick things up otherwise the grip sticks up like a sore thumb. Then again, how does anyone else know that it is not a medical device like a Tinse Unit or colostomy bag? If you are a gunner then you automatically think gun but if you are not...

My thoughts exactly. My cell phone is a Motorola Q and those PDA phones get a lot bigger that mine. At first I worried about the butt of my gun sticking out when I bent over, but then one time I saw what kind of impression my cell phone made under my shirts in a mirror, and I quit worrying about it altogether.

Roger that triangel choke problem. I'm short (5'10") so on guys like Boomhower for example I have to step into 'em and bring 'em up on my hip to get any help from gravity.

Watch out Boom!

Oooo...Something else to look forward to at our monthly outings.

As far as scratching, I have been using this holster since the spring and the only wear marks are on the front end of the slide, by the barrel and well, that is about it. Wear marks, IMO, are just that, they are going to happen, abuse is something else.

You are exactly right. When I first bought my CW I didn't want it to get scratched up either, but then I heard someone else say that a CW is merely a working tool. It's not meant to be a safe queen.

[Guest canynracer]

Nope.

39-17-1305. Possession of firearm where alcoholic beverages are served. -

(a) It is an offense for a person to possess a firearm within the confines of a building open to the public where liquor, wine or other alcoholic beverages, as defined in § 57-3-101(a)(1)(A), or beer, as defined in § 57-6-102(1), are served for on premises consumption.

( A violation of this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

© The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to a person who is:

(1) In the actual discharge of official duties as a law enforcement officer, or is employed in the army, air force, navy, coast guard or marine service of the United States or any member of the Tennessee national guard in the line of duty and pursuant to military regulations, or is in the actual discharge of duties as a correctional officer employed by a penal institution; or

(2) On the person's own premises or premises under the person's control or who is the employee or agent of the owner of the premises with responsibility for protecting persons or property.

[Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1; 1990, ch. 1029, § 4; 2001, ch. 345, § 1.]

If you are off duty, you can't pack. Or maybe I missed a grin?

it says the law doesnt apply, doesnt it?

see in CA once a cop, always a cop...in Ventura county, off duty cops are REQUIRED to carry...

[jgrauman]

it says the law doesnt apply, doesnt it?

correct, it says it does not apply to a police officer "In the actual discharge of official duties as a law enforcement officer" or in other words, on duty. i believe in TN they have to carry concealed while off duty

[Marswolf]

I don't think so guys. If you are off duty, you are not discharging your official duty. Your department can't give you special permission to ignore state code by redefining your job while they aren't paying you.

It is saying that an officer may carry into a place that serves alcohol, if he is there actually discharging his official duties. If he is not there for an official purpose, he may not carry there - open or concealed.

There are people who are always on duty. Constables for example. But if you are sometimes on duty and sometimes off duty, I think the intention of the legislature was to say that you could only legally carry in an alcohol serving restaurant while on duty and actually discharging your official duties.

The solution, of course, is to let all of us pack in these restaurants at any time.

I wish they would write laws so they are understandable.