Don't Talk to the Cops?

[Guest pfries]

Don’t trust your future and the future of your family to anyone; cop or attorney. That’s why we have these discussions. Attorneys have given their opinions here, Cops and former cops have given theirs, homicide detectives and Officers that have been the first responders have given theirs, people who have been involved in shootings have given theirs, and people who have no experience and no legal training have given theirs.

The responsibility for your future ultimately falls on your shoulders. You need to know the law of this state the best you can. You need to read the law and listen to those with experience and not let your decisions be colored by some hatred or distrust of the system. You need to be able to make the best decisions based on the information available to you. We have seen on this forum that even attorneys licensed to practice law in this state have disagreed on issues, Police Officers have disagreed with presented with specific scenarios. You are left with making your own decisions.

I compare this to a year and half ago when I was diagnosed with cancer. I talked with my family Doctor, Urologist, an Oncologist, and a Surgeon. I was scared; my life and my future were at risk. I was frustrated because three of those four professionals gave me my options and then told me they couldn’t tell me what I needed to do; I had to make that decisions. The forth told me “You only have one real option, and here is why”. Based on what the other Doctors had told me and the research I had to do; he was right. I decided to do what he said. Did I make the right decision? We still don’t know, but things look good. I had more professionals and more experience helping me than you will have in a shooting, and I still ended up having to make the call. I will have to live or die with that decision, but I used every resource available to me to make an informed decision. Going to prison would be worse than death to me. So I try to know everything I can about the law and the procedures where I am.

Very well said DaveTN

[Makiaveli]

Having ferried these professionals around for many years and having finally allowed one to catch me, I can tell you those instructors are citing an old old law and that there is simply no such law, code, or rule that states such. A nurse can only be faulted if she has, like FallGuy said, accepted responsibility for care for an individual and neglects to render said care. And only while employed. An off duty RN is covered by the "Good Samaritan Law" FallGuy mentioned earlier from civil action IF he/she decides to stop and help someone. Having said that, any RN, EMT, or other medical professional worth his/her salt would have a hard time passing by someone in need.

Ok an old law would cover what I was fixing to say which was I remember my mom talking about it many moons ago (I'm over 40 to give you an idea).

Thanks for the update

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc.

FWIW....I have been looking at this group for some time (several years). It is self defense insurance and a group that will help you if you are in need after a SD shooting. The only thing that has kept me from joining is the idea of someone thinking that joining such a group was somehow preparation for something that I KNEW was going to happen. Of course it would not be true but the perception could possibly still be there.

I am going to be joining after the first of the year, I know of a couple folks who are members and all they have to say about the group is good stuff. They send out training vids and other info along with the lawyer info. Mr Ayoob and Mr Tom Givens of Rangemaster in Memphis are on the board of advisers so I do feel that the group is legitimate and professional. They will give you a list of close by lawyers and send that lawyer some money to get your defense going. The more that I have thought about it and the more folks who I know that have joined have convinced me that the idea of having some professional help if Heaven Forbid I should need it far out weights the idea that someone may take my membership out of context.

The world gets more violent each day and we as permit holders and EDC'ers have chosen to give ourselves the ability to protect ourselves, therefore we have put ourselves on the front lines so to speak. Personally I do not have the funds to give myself a proper defense should that need arise. This group helps with that defense should you be charged for using your weapon to protect yourself or someone else. We do not have control over just where or when something bad may happen, that is why most of us carry everywhere that it is legal to and not just when going into "bad" areas. This insurance will cover you no matter where you are so long as you are in legal possession of your firearm and are not yourself committing a crime.

A few weeks ago I was in a situation in which I was pretty certain that I was going to have to use my weapon to protect someone that I did not know, my hand was on it and I was literally seconds away from drawing it...as it turned out I did not even have to get involved.

At the time I did not even think twice about what I was going to have to do. Myself and others had already called 911 and I would have had them on the line had things gotten any worse. The PD response time was very very fast and the situation was stopped. I gave 911 all my contact info but have never been asked to make a statement. Thank God that the PD was so fast to respond, the lady did suffer some pretty serious injuries at the hands of the individual that was arrested but AFAIK she is going to be fine.

It was only after the fact that all the "What Ifs" came to my mind.

What I realized was that while I had remained calm had the situation not diffused itself when it did and I had been forced to act that I would have been on my own and I have no idea of just how calm I may have been at that point. And what if the PD had seen things differently than I had? That was probably not likely in this case but certainly still possible. It was then that I made up my mind to join this network just as soon as the Holiday Season is over and funding permits.. To me it will be no different than wearing a seatbelt, keeping a fire extinguisher or even carrying a weapon.

Some of you may want to check it out and may come to the same conclusion that I have....better to have and not need than to need and not have. The prices are very reasonable, especially considering what could be at stake.

I do want to say that I have no affiliation with this group other than I know a few folks who are members and I intend to join soon myself.

Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc.

As for the OP and to speak or not speak?

I am with those who say that certain things do indeed need to be told to the officers before your lawyer is present, if you dont speak up some important facts or evidence may never come to light to help you. I sure would not ramble on like I do on here but some things I feel will need to be said. And I also feel that a person needs to have that lawyers contact information before anything happens. Not just any lawyer either but one well versed in SD type situations.

FWIW...Stay Safe

[Guest WyattEarp]

Don’t trust your future and the future of your family to anyone; cop or attorney. That’s why we have these discussions. Attorneys have given their opinions here, Cops and former cops have given theirs, homicide detectives and Officers that have been the first responders have given theirs, people who have been involved in shootings have given theirs, and people who have no experience and no legal training have given theirs.

The responsibility for your future ultimately falls on your shoulders. You need to know the law of this state the best you can. You need to read the law and listen to those with experience and not let your decisions be colored by some hatred or distrust of the system. You need to be able to make the best decisions based on the information available to you. We have seen on this forum that even attorneys licensed to practice law in this state have disagreed on issues, Police Officers have disagreed with presented with specific scenarios. You are left with making your own decisions.

I compare this to a year and half ago when I was diagnosed with cancer. I talked with my family Doctor, Urologist, an Oncologist, and a Surgeon. I was scared; my life and my future were at risk. I was frustrated because three of those four professionals gave me my options and then told me they couldn’t tell me what I needed to do; I had to make that decisions. The forth told me “You only have one real option, and here is why”. Based on what the other Doctors had told me and the research I had to do; he was right. I decided to do what he said. Did I make the right decision? We still don’t know, but things look good. I had more professionals and more experience helping me than you will have in a shooting, and I still ended up having to make the call. I will have to live or die with that decision, but I used every resource available to me to make an informed decision. Going to prison would be worse than death to me. So I try to know everything I can about the law and the procedures where I am.

yes sir indeed. one of the main reasons I think this forum was created, to educate people. Without this forum and the wealth of information and perspectives, I would have probably been much more hesitant to get my HCP and begin carrying. But joining and doing lots of reading and research for about 4 months before I got my permit, and another 3 months before I got my carry weapon, put me more at ease with the responsibility that comes with having a permit and carrying a loaded firearm around.

the rest of your post was great, and I can attest to something, distrusting police officers, attorneys or prosecutors, comes from a skewed view of how things really are. We base our distrust on what we hear in the media or from Joe Schmoe that we overhead talking at the doctor's office about something that happened to him or his best friend or whatever. Why? Because that's we are tuned in to. You might hear of a prosecutor who convicted the wrong guy, based on circumstantial or questionable evidence, and then it made it all over the news. Now people question if something like that will happen to them. But what people never hear about in the news, is how Prosector X, Y, or Z, successfully and accurately prosecuted and convicted 1,000 criminals without any errors, all they know is that 1 screw up by this other prosecuter, and then people have a biased, stereotyped distrust of ALL prosecutors.

In my experience, the very thing you're afraid of happening, WILL happen, because a person becomes so FOCUSED on making sure it never does happen, that in the end, it ends up happening anyway, because they try so hard to control the situation, the events instead of just relaxing and not worrying about it, till it happens. It's alwaays nice to have to a contingency plan of what to do in the event of a self-defense shooting, an earthquake, a tornado hitting your house, where to go, who to call, or whatever, but if it's to the extent where you're becoming consumed by this event happening, then that person has some issues they need to deal with because that's just not healthy at all.

I've had my share of bad experiences with police officers, but sometimes they've been a result of my attitude and the way I was verbally confrontational or dismissive. Sometimes, I've been fully cooperative, and the cop was just having a bad day or night and I happened to be the one he took it out on and was a jerk too. In the end, it's really not worth all the trouble. You can disagree respectfully, and you can cooperate to an extent to give them some general idea of what happened, while still ensuring your rights are protected and respected, and without getting an attitude or pissing a cop off. They're much more likely to respect you and believe you.

Forgive the Star Wars reference, but it's like when Anakin was trying to keep anything from happening to Padme (his girlfriend or wife) In Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith, he swore he'd never let anyone hurt her or kill her, and that was the thing he was most afraid of. She thought he was talking crazy talk, and she just wanted for him and her to leave, and go raise their kid together. In the end, he killed her by breaking her heart, because he was so consumed on stopping anything from happening to her, instead of just focusing on her and himself and getting away from evil Sith Lord, who led him down the path of destruction, that it happened anyways, and then at the end of the movie, he's asking where she is, what happened to her after Darth Sideous' medical surgeons put him back together, and he's informed that he killed her. His worst nightmare came true. now, who says you can't learn anything by watching tv?

Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc.

FWIW....I have been looking at this group for some time (several years). It is self defense insurance and a group that will help you if you are in need after a SD shooting. The only thing that has kept me from joining is the idea of someone thinking that joining such a group was somehow preparation for something that I KNEW was going to happen. Of course it would not be true but the perception could possibly still be there.

I am going to be joining after the first of the year, I know of a couple folks who are members and all they have to say about the group is good stuff. They send out training vids and other info along with the lawyer info. Mr Ayoob and Mr Tom Givens of Rangemaster in Memphis are on the board of advisers so I do feel that the group is legitimate and professional. They will give you a list of close by lawyers and send that lawyer some money to get your defense going. The more that I have thought about it and the more folks who I know that have joined have convinced me that the idea of having some professional help if Heaven Forbid I should need it far out weights the idea that someone may take my membership out of context.

The world gets more violent each day and we as permit holders and EDC'ers have chosen to give ourselves the ability to protect ourselves, therefore we have put ourselves on the front lines so to speak. Personally I do not have the funds to give myself a proper defense should that need arise. This group helps with that defense should you be charged for using your weapon to protect yourself or someone else. We do not have control over just where or when something bad may happen, that is why most of us carry everywhere that it is legal to and not just when going into "bad" areas. This insurance will cover you no matter where you are so long as you are in legal possession of your firearm and are not yourself committing a crime.

A few weeks ago I was in a situation in which I was pretty certain that I was going to have to use my weapon to protect someone that I did not know, my hand was on it and I was literally seconds away from drawing it...as it turned out I did not even have to get involved.

At the time I did not even think twice about what I was going to have to do. Myself and others had already called 911 and I would have had them on the line had things gotten any worse. The PD response time was very very fast and the situation was stopped. I gave 911 all my contact info but have never been asked to make a statement. Thank God that the PD was so fast to respond, the lady did suffer some pretty serious injuries at the hands of the individual that was arrested but AFAIK she is going to be fine.

It was only after the fact that all the "What Ifs" came to my mind.

What I realized was that while I had remained calm had the situation not diffused itself when it did and I had been forced to act that I would have been on my own and I have no idea of just how calm I may have been at that point. And what if the PD had seen things differently than I had? That was probably not likely in this case but certainly still possible. It was then that I made up my mind to join this network just as soon as the Holiday Season is over and funding permits.. To me it will be no different than wearing a seatbelt, keeping a fire extinguisher or even carrying a weapon.

Some of you may want to check it out and may come to the same conclusion that I have....better to have and not need than to need and not have. The prices are very reasonable, especially considering what could be at stake.

I do want to say that I have no affiliation with this group other than I know a few folks who are members and I intend to join soon myself.

Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc.

As for the OP and to speak or not speak?

I am with those who say that certain things do indeed need to be told to the officers before your lawyer is present, if you dont speak up some important facts or evidence may never come to light to help you. I sure would not ramble on like I do on here but some things I feel will need to be said. And I also feel that a person needs to have that lawyers contact information before anything happens. Not just any lawyer either but one well versed in SD type situations.

FWIW...Stay Safe

it's such a shame that it even has to come to needing self-defense insurance. If the legislators would close the loopholes to criminals and their families, and disallow them or their families from sueing when someone tries to take criminal action against an innocent person, and they end up shot, injured, dead or maimed as a result of their actions, that's just TOO DAMN BAD! don't break the law, and don't try to break into someone's house, don't pull a gun or a weapon on someone, and stop being a worthless, pontificating, steaming pile of cow dung and they won't have anything to worry about.

if they're willing to cross that line, well that's the risk they run for being stupid, and they should pay the price. and the price is they could get arrested, shot, have broken bones, get stabbed, paralyzed, maimed, disfigured, in prison or any combination thereof, or they could end up meeting their maker (as in DEAD).

I don't see what basis or upon what grounds any criminal or the criminal's family would have to stand upon to bring a civil lawsuit against someone defending themselves from a piece of trash that places another person in imminent fear of death or bodily injury.

is there no accountability and consequence within our society anymore?

but thanks for sharing that link, as a college student, I don't know how I'd pay for an attorney in the event a self-defense shooting occured and I was sued, or somehow came to face prosecution. I'm going to look into this.

[BigK]

it's such a shame that it even has to come to needing self-defense insurance. If the legislators would close the loopholes to criminals and their families, and disallow them or their families from sueing when someone tries to take criminal action against an innocent person, and they end up shot, injured, dead or maimed as a result of their actions, that's just TOO DAMN BAD! don't break the law, and don't try to break into someone's house, don't pull a gun or a weapon on someone, and stop being a worthless, pontificating, steaming pile of cow dung and they won't have anything to worry about.

if they're willing to cross that line, well that's the risk they run for being stupid, and they should pay the price. and the price is they could get arrested, shot, have broken bones, get stabbed, paralyzed, maimed, disfigured, in prison or any combination thereof, or they could end up meeting their maker (as in DEAD).

I don't see what basis or upon what grounds any criminal or the criminal's family would have to stand upon to bring a civil lawsuit against someone defending themselves from a piece of trash that places another person in imminent fear of death or bodily injury.

is there no accountability and consequence within our society anymore?

THIS^^^ +100

But, a) I can't believe you made a Star Wars analogy and it wasn't referencing one of the original 3 films, so -99

[DaveTN]

oops, I put this in the wrong thread.

Edited December 20, 2011 by DaveTN

[Guest WyattEarp]

Pulling a gun does not equal using deadly force. Pulling a gun without justification is aggravated assault. If a truck driver jumped out and started yelling at you do you think you should be arrested for a felony if you displayed a gun?

kinda up in the air on this one. If the truck driver was trying to fight me and I said I dont want to fight, and he still proceeded to try and instigate a fight, and if by showing my gun, say maybe by raising my shirt enough to where he could see it, but without pulling it or placing my hand on it, and just showing it deterred the truck driver from continuing his aggression and diffused the situation, then no, I don't think a person should be arrested for that.

now, on the other hand, if there's two people in a confrontation, and one guy wants to fight, and the other guy pulls his gun and starts mouthing off saying "oh you bad, who's bad now?" or some nonsense like that, he should absolutely be charged. or if he's using the gun to intimidate someone or purposefully place them in fear, absolutely.

but it would be tough for the law to differentiate, because as with anything, you'll get Person A's side of the story, you'll get Person B's side of the story, and somewhere in between is the real truth, and then you might have 3 - 5 witnesses who saw the same thing, but gave a different account of what they saw.

it would be an investigative nightmare for the police, so even though it's one of those fine line situations, I say leave it as it is, and know how to conduct yourself. when in doubt with a situation like that, your tennis shoes and your cell phone are your 2 best friends in the entire world. just pray the other guy isn't faster

[BlackHawk93]

Which is exactly why so much responsibility comes with carrying a HCP and a firearm. If you have a problem with someone calling you a sissy (not the word I was looking for but this IS a forum with rules) and can't walk away without being able to swallow your pride then you shouldn't be carrying. You never know how far you might be pushed to a confrontation and quite frankly running from it might be your best alternative. No, change that, it probably WILL be your best alternative. Some cocky young guys who might be around friends would have a hard time letting someone insult them and walking away, all the while being laughed at. But that's where the discipline and responsibility would need to be present. I'm a strong type A personality and the military made me that way. I waited a long time before getting my permit. I finally felt it was no longer necessary to prove myself to people who I knew I didn't need to but let them push my buttons. I wear zippers now.

[Guest WyattEarp]

Which is exactly why so much responsibility comes with carrying a HCP and a firearm. If you have a problem with someone calling you a sissy (not the word I was looking for but this IS a forum with rules) and can't walk away without being able to swallow your pride then you shouldn't be carrying. You never know how far you might be pushed to a confrontation and quite frankly running from it might be your best alternative. No, change that, it probably WILL be your best alternative. Some cocky young guys who might be around friends would have a hard time letting someone insult them and walking away, all the while being laughed at. But that's where the discipline and responsibility would need to be present. I'm a strong type A personality and the military made me that way. I waited a long time before getting my permit. I finally felt it was no longer necessary to prove myself to people who I knew I didn't need to but let them push my buttons. I wear zippers now.

I simply would never want to be in a fight PERIOD while in possession of a handgun for fear that the other person got the upper hand on me and then took my gun and shot me with it. I'll fight as a last resort, but only if I'm not carrying and I know they aren't carrying, and there's no other option. otherwise, my tennis shoes will be making themselves real useful.

I'm kinda like you, I waited awhile before I got mine. I used to have a hair trigger on my temper, but some growing up and maturity, and getting a few years older has toned it down to a reasonable level. My parents were very concerned when I got my permit and HCP, they didn't think it was a good idea, and to be truthful, I was a bit nervous, and concerned with the responsibility, so I did A LOT of research, asked a lot of questions, and did quite a bit of attitude check prior to getting my HCP, and then my gun. I did it all in steps. HCP course in Feb 2011, research, HCP permit in June 2011, more research, purchased handgun end of Aug 2011, more research, picked up handgun on Sept 30, 2011. Still always doing research.

Some of the reason for the time between getting my HCP and my handgun was financial reasons, but I'm glad it worked out that way, because it allowed me to become informed, so I can make sure I do the right thing should I ever find myself in a situation where I need to use my handgun. Definitely don't want to be "THAT GUY" who screws up, and then finds himself in a big legal mess.

Oddly enough, the biggest surprise to my parents and to me, as well as some as some others, is how much more mature I've become knowing I have the responsibility that comes with carrying. My dad says he's noticed a big change in me over the last 18 months, and has said he was really proud of me. Having an HCP and a handgun forces me to think about what I'm doing, where I am going, and how I'm going to conduct myself from an overall stand point, regardless of the mood I'm in. But with so many things going very well for me, it helps that I have a positive attitude the majority of the time I've found life is much easier, when you're not pissed of all the time, it takes less effort to just smile, and enjoy the day, and shrug off the negative than it does to be grouchy and ticked off and wear a frown around. Worry about what you can control, and don't sweat the rest. So I can honestly say, carrying has made me more responsible, and less abrasive with my attitude and mouth problem, I'm finding myself becoming more reserved when something happens that I don't like or agree with, or someone tries to push my buttons just to push them, and if I feel the need to get upset about it, I just wait till I get home, and I turn on the PS3 and load COD MW2 and I go take it out on some bad guys.