Carry in WMA's bill HB 0961

[Guest Patty]

Is that because you are old or just patience ? lol

[jughead]

Is that because you are old or just patience ? lol

decided last summer i aint getting old i am already there. the patience thing i have never had. if i think i want something i want it yesterday. have fought that problem all my life.

[DaveS]

Most WMA's are open year round! Most WMA's offer year round hunting...just read your regs....oh yeah....LEAVE YOUR ATV's at home so the rest of us can enjoy some peace and quite....it's the law also!

WD

[Wingshooter]

Speaker signed it today!

Tennessee General Assembly Legislation

What's next? 10 days / Governor's signature?

[Fallguy]

Speaker of the Senate still has to sign it.

Then it will be sent to Governor (not necessarly the same day) and whenever it gets on his desk, then the 10 days start.

[Wingshooter]

Speaker of the Senate still has to sign it.

Then it will be sent to Governor (not necessarly the same day) and whenever it gets on his desk, then the 10 days start.

Ahh, that's right... I can't forget the S. Speaker. I hope he's not on vacation

[GKar]

Signed by Sen. Speaker today (6/30).

Had an interesting conversation with a couple of Cherokee NF folks...I asked about current enforcement status for handgun carry by a holder of a valid TN HCP in any area of CNF in Tennessee and NOT in a WMA. The first person seemed unsure what a WMA was, and referred me to another. This second person told me that this was a national forest and that state law changes didn't apply, and they were looking to national parks for guidance (?!?!?!?) I suggested that my understanding differed, and asked if she could point me to a clarifying document. She then indicated that she was just going by "what her notes said", and that she would need to refer me to one of their two LEOs, both of whom were out of the office. I left a voice message, and am still awaiting a return call.

The lesson here is an important one - do not expect that the field personnel will be up-to-date on these recent changes, and do not expect that they will be either interested in nor receptive to hearing about them (these folks sure weren't).

[jughead]

i have started carrying a printed copy of all pertaining statutes to handgun carry permits in my vehicles. have had 2 run ins with state troopers over open carry in my vehicle no less. when the rules are finalized i will print these too.

[cannoncocker]

The following was copied from the U.S. Forest Service region 9 website (TN is region 8). I could find nothing similar on the region 8 website. What is interesting is the first sentence.

Laws Regarding Firearms on National Forest Lands

First, the primary laws governing possession of firearms and other weapons on National Forest are State Laws. These laws were developed by the states following establishment of our Cooperative Wildlife Management Agreements. Most notable of the state laws concerns controlling firearms on the National Forest are "cased gun laws”.

Cased Gun Laws: As the name implies, this law requires that all firearms on National Forest be unloaded and kept in a case. Virginia and West Virginia have similar “cased gun laws”. In order to allow hunting, these laws make an exception.

• It is legal to have loaded firearms on National Forest during the authorized general firearms and muzzle loading gun seasons for bear, deer, grouse, pheasant, quail, rabbit, raccoon, squirrel, turkey, or waterfowl. This exception is very specific and applies only during the period when it is legal to take these listed species and doesn't include carrying the loaded weapons in a vehicle.
  
• Because hunting on Sunday is prohibited, carrying a loaded gun on National Forest is not legal on Sunday even if it is the Sunday in the middle of the general firearms deer season.
  
• The second exception to this law allows people with a concealed weapon permit to carry a loaded, concealed, handgun either on their person or in their vehicle while on National Forest. This does not apply if the person is engaged in a primitive weapons season or chase only season.
  
• People muzzle loading or bow hunting may carry a concealed weapon as long as they possess a concealed weapon permit.
  

Discharging a firearm, crossbow, or bow and arrow in or across a road or within the right-of-way or any road is prohibited by both State and Federal Law.

Any person convicted of a felony may not legally possess firearms on National Forest.

Reckless use or handling firearms: It is a violation of both Federal and State law to handle any firearm in a careless and reckless manner or hunt while under the influence of intoxicants or narcotic drugs.

[Fallguy]

I emailed the TWRA last week about what effect HB0961 would have about a FAQ on their website about no carry guns allowed. They basically said get back in touch when it becomes law. So doesn't sound like they have been making any plans on it.

On National Forest.....

It seems some trouble is, the local ranger for each National Forest can issue their own "special orders" (per 36CFR261.50). Some have used 36CFR261.53(e) which allows them to make special orders for "public safety" to ban carry handguns. Such as in LBL.

Otherwise the only things they can prohibit by order are in 36CFR261.58

There are also special rules for some areas in the Code of Federal Regulations. Region 5 in 36CFR261.75, Region 8 in 36CFR261.77 and Region 9 in 36CFR261.78

The general list of things prohibited in National Forest by the CFR is in Title 36, Chapter 2, Part 261 and can be seen here

So basically...some rangers are using the "special orders" provision as their own "local loophole" to ban carry in their National Forest.

[GKar]

It seems some trouble is, the local ranger for each National Forest can issue their own "special orders" (per 36CFR261.50). Some have used 36CFR261.53(e) which allows them to make special orders for "public safety" to ban carry handguns. Such as in LBL.

Interesting. As written, the provisions within the cited portions of the CFR would seem to be specific to the closure of certain roads, trails, and areas within a park, as opposed to the prohibition of certain acts (ie, carrying a firearm) on those roads, trails and areas. But then again, the wording of a rule has never stood in the way of a quasi-regulator with an agenda...particularly when no one is looking over his/her shoulder.

It seems best that I cool my heels and wait for TWRA to react to HB 0961, then once again approach CNF.

EDIT: Looks like it has been sent to the governor's desk. So, unless he decides to sgn it quickly (no money on that bet), we are probably looking at something very close to July 14 as an effective date (July 1 +10, adding in the holiday and Sundays.) Anybody know a good restaurant in a WMA?

Edited June 30, 2009 by GKar

[Guest rj8806]

deleted..... read the post wrong...sorry

[Guest Patty]

I would just like to point out that most of the CNF in Tennessee is indeed a WMA, it is two different parts, the North Compartment and the South Compartment, with the Smokies in between. And I would encourage anybody who is interested in learning the Regulations that are currently in effect, to study them completely.

There are many different types of employee's within the TWRA, and they all are not aware of the WMA Regs.

And then, of course the CNF is a National Forest also. So now with that understanding, those Regs need to be understood also. And if that is not enough, some of the property is around Towns, who have laws also, that can now pertain to parks and HCP carry.

This is all coming on board with the general public wanting to carry because of new laws coming into effect. So be expecting those you encounter to not know, or understand or even agree.

[GKar]

I would just like to point out that most of the CNF in Tennessee is indeed a WMA...

Precisely the reason for the wording of my original question as posed to CNF personnel - knowing that WMA status is still a bit "up in the air", I was hoping to get a glimpse of what the field may/not know about the areas that should be clearer (ie, pertinent legislation for non-WMA areas having cleared all legislative hurdles). Hopeful of more, but expecting pretty much what I got.

Still no response (return call) from the LEO. I've tried to communicate with a CNF LEO on one previous occasion a year or so ago, with similarly productive results.

Your point RE studying and understanding the regulations is indeed a valid one; particularly so for those seemingly charged with enforcement of those regs. My professional life is spent trying to stay abreast of and understanding regulations promulgated in the CFR in an effort to be prepared to guide my business through the ensuing regulatory quagmire...no greater frustration occurs than when the regulators are less versed in the regulations than the regulated, which leads to "I'll enforce it the way I read it, even though my colleague in the next office does it differently."

Edited June 30, 2009 by GKar

[RRMan03]

I was going to write some experiences in the Cherokee NF here in this thread but have decided to let it be. I live 2 minutes from the NF and I know exactly what and will happen if you carry in the NF.As far as the actual law everybody always defers to the WMA laws. So figure it out.Will this new law solve it in the NF. Not a chance.NF will write a special order and that will be that again.It will be just like LBL

[Fallguy]

Interesting. As written, the provisions within the cited portions of the CFR would seem to be specific to the closure of certain roads, trails, and areas within a park, as opposed to the prohibition of certain acts (ie, carrying a firearm) on those roads, trails and areas. But then again, the wording of a rule has never stood in the way of a quasi-regulator with an agenda...particularly when no one is looking over his/her shoulder.

I agree...I believe the intent of that section was to allow the ranger to issue a special order to close a road or area because of flooding or other "special" situations.

But as you said...when no one is looking they can pretty much do what they want.

I have thought about when things with restaurant & park carry settle down a bit here in TN, of trying to contact the sponsors of the National Park carry legislation. Maybe the could write some bill that could say that part of the CFR does not allow for an official to issue a general ban on firearms in the whole forest...or however they think it would need to be worded. and/or contact the NRA with the suggestion and let them know how several local rangers are using that regulation for a general prohibition.

[victorcharlie]

It looks like this one went to the governor on 6-30. The wife and I just got home from backpacking in the N. Georgia Cohutta's. I'll be a happy man when I can protect myself and my family in the woods and forest of Tennessee.

[JayC]

The loophole is a legal one right now, it doesn't ban firearms, it requires that you have a 'permit' (otherwise called TN hunting license) to access the NF with a firearm. Which is exactly the way the LBL 'general order' is worded.

They're closing the area unless you have a permit, and then requiring that you have a hunting license as a permit to carry a firearm. This general order was written with the help of the TWRA to stop poaching years ago.

As I said earlier in the post, the best way to fix this from a state law is to have HCP be a type of hunting license under state law. I know it's a long shot, but it wouldn't require talking an Obama political appointee into changing the general order.

I agree...I believe the intent of that section was to allow the ranger to issue a special order to close a road or area because of flooding or other "special" situations.

But as you said...when no one is looking they can pretty much do what they want.

I have thought about when things with restaurant & park carry settle down a bit here in TN, of trying to contact the sponsors of the National Park carry legislation. Maybe the could write some bill that could say that part of the CFR does not allow for an official to issue a general ban on firearms in the whole forest...or however they think it would need to be worded. and/or contact the NRA with the suggestion and let them know how several local rangers are using that regulation for a general prohibition.

[victorcharlie]

The drama is killing me.

[Fallguy]

I hear ya....

[jughead]

one think i could send the gov. a bill for the anxiety he is causing me with all this cat and mouse he is playing?

[GKar]

Another interesting turn: I spoke to a TVA police officer who indicated that TVA properties are not affected by the recent changes in either Federal law (Coburn amendment) or state law(s). He indicated that those TVA properties currently posted as "No firearms" will continue to be posted, and carry by HCP holders will not be allowed. He also indicated that those TVA properties that are not specifically posted will continue to allow carry, as they have previously (access areas, etc).

Dang, talk about needing a map....

[jughead]

am i correct this is day 5 ?

[Fallguy]

am i correct this is day 5 ?

5 or 6.

I think July 1 would have been 1 day, since he got it on June 30. The constitution says the only days that don't count are Sundays...it doesn't make any mention of holidays. So...I am counting the 4th when I say it has been 6 days.

[victorcharlie]

Still nothing. I guess no news is good news huh?