Restaurant Carry Bill

[Guest Doc44]

For some reason I don't think there will be a flood of posted signs. Last year when it was legal to carry in resturants serving booze I did a drive by survey here and there were no signs... zero. I think some business owners may feel a "NO GUNS ALLOWED" sign is an invitation, rob me rob me... gun free zone.. especially at the corner QUICK SHOP AND ROBs. If the sheepie business owners are really serious about having no CCW guns in their business they will post a sign that can be easily seen and understood.... maybe they will include it on the roadside billboard signs, in their listing in the Yellow Pages, newspaper ads and on their discount coupons...... but I don't think so.

Doc44

[Guest TNReb]

At least if it gets declared "unconstitutionally vague" this time, it will apply only to the posting TCA, not restaurants.

My advice, keep an extra $500-1000 in your savings account and just go about your business as usual. Concealed means concealed.

Yeah, I could buy another gun with the money I would spend on that. It might be interesting though. I will stay concealed and the "posters" don't have to worry about me or my money coming in their place.

[Guest trigem]

This is taking way too long, time to clean house?

[Guest HexHead]

Where was this, Hex?

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/tennessee-politics-legislation/37807-restaurant-carry-bill-post511889.html#post511889

[Fallguy]

While I admit I don't like the symbol alone being a legal posting, I agree with those that think that there really won't be a rash of signs/symbols put up all over the place. A few of us and a few restaurant owner's are really the only ones watching this so close.

After the law passed last year I went out to eat at Logan's Roadhouse in Jackson, spoke with the manager to thank him for not posting....he was unaware that there had been any change in the law. This is after it had been on the local news broadcast several times.

Also if you do unintentionally walk past a legal sign, it's not like someone is going to hold out their hand for you to put $500 in it. You'd have to be charged by someone, if you're outside and still there it would have to be the property owner since the LEO didn't witness the misdemeanor. You know the property owner isn't going to want to take a day off from work to go to court...especially since the $500 isn't going to him. But even if you are inside...I don't think most LEOs want to go to court over something relatively minor either.

I'm not looking back to find the post, but someone posted the reason the language to allow one or both as a legal posting was because, legal staff thought that the way the law was written, that it was that way know. Not sure how they got that....even the AG has opined that (as of now) the symbol alone was not a legal posting.

When/if this becomes law....we can just do like last year and speak with any owner's/manager's that post and tell them why we won't be back. Seems like last year I remember several post where owner's/manager's reversed themselves and removed postings after being educated.

[Guest nashvegas]

Hey guys, if this does become law, what about this--since they sued on our behalf over last year's law, maybe we should see if we could hire their lawyer to argue that the law on posting this year is so "unconstitutionally vague" that the property/business owners cannot know how to properly post, so the whole posting provision should be thrown out and no one should be allowed to post. We could also try to put it in Bonnyman's court and use the same arguments the anti's did last year to see if she would be consistent. I would contribute to a fund to try to get that done. How about the rest of us?

How about suing to do away with needing a permit at all?

"No State shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor." --Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 US 105, US Supreme Court, 1943.

"The U.S. Supreme Court broadly and unequivocally held that requiring licensing or registration of any constitutional right is itself unconstitutional." --Follett vs. Town of McCormick, S.C., 321 U.S. 573 [1944]

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

I agree with you Fallguy. I don't think there will be a huge posting problem - even with the international symbol deal. As far as approaching the restaurants, that is indeed the best way to handle it. If a restaurant where you really like to eat that is posted then by all means try and educate the management. But the time has to be right. On a busy Friday night standing in the lobby/sitting area is NOT the time to make a scene with the mgmt. Instead, try and make arrangements to meet with them during a weekday when things are more calm. They will be more receptive and less defensive that way.

My gut tells me that Memphis will see a much higher percentage of Restaurants that post than the Nashville area will. If I am correct then I will most likely not see many posted places at all.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

it all boils down to this.... keep the freaking gun concealed and you will never have a problem because noone will know ya got it

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

it all boils down to this.... keep the freaking gun concealed and you will never have a problem because noone will know ya got it

Well, that is until the unthinkable happens and you have to actually use the weapon. Then you find yourself in the muck because you would be considered illegally carrying in that establishment.

[Fallguy]

Well, that is until the unthinkable happens and you have to actually use the weapon. Then you find yourself in the muck because you would be considered illegally carrying in that establishment.

If you use it in a justifiable self-defense situation, you can not be charged with a violation of 39-17-1359 or any 39-17-13xx law for that matter.

39-17-1322. Defenses.

A person shall not be charged with or convicted of a violation under this part if the person possessed, displayed or employed a handgun in justifiable self-defense or in justifiable defense of another during the commission of a crime in which that person or the other person defended was a victim.

http://www.michie.com/tennessee

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Well, that is until the unthinkable happens and you have to actually use the weapon. Then you find yourself in the muck because you would be considered illegally carrying in that establishment.

nope.. your good to go....

39-17-1322. Defenses.

A person shall not be charged with or convicted of a violation under this part if the person possessed, displayed or employed a handgun in justifiable self-defense or in justifiable defense of another during the commission of a crime in which that person or the other person defended was a victim.

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

If you use it in a justifiable self-defense situation, you can not be charged with a violation of 39-17-1359 or any 39-17-13xx law for that matter.

http://www.michie.com/tennessee

I stand entirely corrected and I appreciate the information. That actually makes me feel much better about this legislation.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Heres my opinion for whats its worth... do i like the signage, well no... but its not going to make a difference. The places that are posted now will stay the same and the others that were going to post will anyway. I'll carry my gun concealed and try my best to obey the law and avoid those places that post. If I have an "rutt ro scoobie" moment and someone sees my gun, says something to me and I cant get out the door before the police get there... and I cant articulate my way out of it, then I will save $500 and pay a "stupid gun tax" violation and go on about my business. Honestly, this thing is just about unenforceable.

[Wingshooter]

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/tennessee-politics-legislation/37807-restaurant-carry-bill-post511889.html#post511889

From that thread, I get this quote:

...The senate bill therefore allows the international symbol.

3. The bill retains the language of the existing law requiring all signs to be posted at entrances and of sufficient size to provide notice to permit holders. Small stickers would not suffice as some have suggested. No change from the existing law.

Hmmm... "of sufficient size to provide notice to permit holders" could mean different things to different people. What is the definition of sufficient size? I guess if I see it then it's posted, but if I don't... well, it must have been too small.

I guess this is a good excuse for me to go get a new and smaller EDC just in case I accidentally walk past a small vague circle/slash (like the small clear stickers on a glass door). There's always an excuse out there to go gun shopin' My current EDC (USP 40 compact) is way too bulky for summertime concealed carry.

It will be nice to be allowed into restaurants that serve and don't post once again. I am looking forward to that!

[molonlabetn]

It's almost as if the laws were designed to create a "don't ask, don't tell" sentiment regarding carrying a handgun... essentially, we get an official looking ID card and an obscure set of laws that make us feel as if we still don't have permission because we can never be sure who's got the ability to say we can't. It's BS.

There are too many laws besides these, it's impossible to not unknowingly break some obscure law every day, as has been pointed out many times... so, when a little sticker or little laminated card in my wallet makes the difference between legal and illegal, we're way past ridiculous. I give up worrying about it.

[Daps]

For some reason I don't think there will be a flood of posted signs. Last year when it was legal to carry in resturants serving booze I did a drive by survey here and there were no signs... zero. I think some business owners may feel a "NO GUNS ALLOWED" sign is an invitation, rob me rob me... gun free zone.. especially at the corner QUICK SHOP AND ROBs. If the sheepie business owners are really serious about having no CCW guns in their business they will post a sign that can be easily seen and understood.... maybe they will include it on the roadside billboard signs, in their listing in the Yellow Pages, newspaper ads and on their discount coupons...... but I don't think so.

Doc44

I gotta disagree on somethings. I will agree I didn't see any posting pop up last year but I didn't look too hard but allowing the slash gun is going to make it A LOT EASIER for them to put up new signs. Heck they can go in their office, google the slash gun image and print it out and stick it on their front door and they're good to go. No cost of having one professionally done or they can go to Office Depot and get the printable window sheets and make it look pretty. I think this law will make it easier for a few more places to post up and at very little cost

I don't think business owners feel the No guns = rob me. Crazy people with intent don't really care what a sign says. As far as Stop & Robs it's mostly the cashier getting robbed and let's face the majority of jobs have a no weapon policy at work and most people know that, even thugs. So as a robber I'd think my odds of a score are good there no matter if they have a No Guns or not.

[Guest db99wj]

I am willing to bet that we don't see many more no gun signs go up. In today's economy, restaurants and other retail places need all the customers they can get. They are hurting.

Lack of media coverage. While it has been reported, it is no where near the top of the stories. The flood issues across the state have trumped most other news stories and that is what people are concerned with. As unfortunate as the flooding is, the media attention with this law hasn't bee there because of the flooding, which could help us in with most people just forgetting about this. Out of sight, out of mind kind of thing.

[Fallguy]

Heres my opinion for whats its worth... do i like the signage, well no... but its not going to make a difference. The places that are posted now will stay the same and the others that were going to post will anyway. I'll carry my gun concealed and try my best to obey the law and avoid those places that post. If I have an "rutt ro scoobie" moment and someone sees my gun, says something to me and I cant get out the door before the police get there... and I cant articulate my way out of it, then I will save $500 and pay a "stupid gun tax" violation and go on about my business. Honestly, this thing is just about unenforceable.

Well said!!

[Daps]

Heres my opinion for whats its worth... do i like the signage, well no... but its not going to make a difference. The places that are posted now will stay the same and the others that were going to post will anyway. I'll carry my gun concealed and try my best to obey the law and avoid those places that post. If I have an "rutt ro scoobie" moment and someone sees my gun, says something to me and I cant get out the door before the police get there... and I cant articulate my way out of it, then I will save $500 and pay a "stupid gun tax" violation and go on about my business. Honestly, this thing is just about unenforceable.

Is it just a $500 fine with no jail time or charge? If so then I can live with that. I'm normally concealed anyway.

There may or may not have been a mall in Jackson that I went to and upon walking in the Macys door to go to chick fil-a I didn't notice any signs, well on the way out I drove around front and the had signs in the parking lot. Oh well I guess conceal does mean concealed

[timcalhoun]

Heres my opinion for whats its worth... do i like the signage, well no... but its not going to make a difference. The places that are posted now will stay the same and the others that were going to post will anyway. I'll carry my gun concealed and try my best to obey the law and avoid those places that post. If I have an "rutt ro scoobie" moment and someone sees my gun, says something to me and I cant get out the door before the police get there... and I cant articulate my way out of it, then I will save $500 and pay a "stupid gun tax" violation and go on about my business. Honestly, this thing is just about unenforceable.

+1

[Guest db99wj]

Heres my opinion for whats its worth... do i like the signage, well no... but its not going to make a difference. The places that are posted now will stay the same and the others that were going to post will anyway. I'll carry my gun concealed and try my best to obey the law and avoid those places that post. If I have an "rutt ro scoobie" moment and someone sees my gun, says something to me and I cant get out the door before the police get there... and I cant articulate my way out of it, then I will save $500 and pay a "stupid gun tax" violation and go on about my business. Honestly, this thing is just about unenforceable.

It's almost as if the laws were designed to create a "don't ask, don't tell" sentiment regarding carrying a handgun... essentially, we get an official looking ID card and an obscure set of laws that make us feel as if we still don't have permission because we can never be sure who's got the ability to say we can't. It's BS.

There are too many laws besides these, it's impossible to not unknowingly break some obscure law every day, as has been pointed out many times... so, when a little sticker or little laminated card in my wallet makes the difference between legal and illegal, we're way past ridiculous. I give up worrying about it.

Very well said.

[Fallguy]

Is it just a $500 fine with no jail time or charge? If so then I can live with that. I'm normally concealed anyway.

That is correct...it specifically says in the law "punishable by $500 fine only."

[Daps]

Screw it then. I'll carry anyway as long as there is no jail time or me losing my carry rights

[Fallguy]

It's almost as if the laws were designed to create a "don't ask, don't tell" sentiment regarding carrying a handgun... essentially, we get an official looking ID card and an obscure set of laws that make us feel as if we still don't have permission because we can never be sure who's got the ability to say we can't. It's BS.

There are too many laws besides these, it's impossible to not unknowingly break some obscure law every day, as has been pointed out many times... so, when a little sticker or little laminated card in my wallet makes the difference between legal and illegal, we're way past ridiculous. I give up worrying about it.

+1...especially the last sentence.

[timcalhoun]

So it's kinda like a 500 dollar poorly concealed tax.