WMCTV Channel 5 Memphis report: Stand Your Ground: Deadly Force

[Guest db99wj]

This was on last night, this is their on going series on how to protect and stand up for yourself. I posted the "Citizen Shooters" one a few weeks ago.

http://wmctv.com/Global/category.asp?C=124314

Video is on the right.

STAND YOUR GROUND: Deadly Force

Updated: March 5, 2008 10:12 AM CST

His military training taught him to protect both his identity and his personal safety.

"Bob," a retired Marine from Shelby County, is a walking arsenal. He carries all the tools of self-defense, and he's trained to use every one of them.

"If you carry anything, you should have the proper training," says Bob, who requested that we keep his real identity confidential. "If they don't have the training, then they are not upholding their responsibility."

Knowing that the police can't be everywhere, Bob carries pepper spray, a fighting knife, a flashlight with a beveled end for striking and a .40-caliber pistol (with a Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit). Each is concealed in certain areas of his clothing.

A potential attacker would never know.

"You want to get them to stop to give you time to get away," he says.

Bob follows what's called the Deadly Force Continuum, a sort of "rules-of-the-road" that police recognize as the steps citizens can take to engage a potential threat.

First, citizens should avoid circumstances that can get them into trouble -- going to the ATM after dark, jogging with your IPod so loud that you don't pay attention to your surroundings, etc. But if you're faced with a threat, here are the steps of the Deadly Force Continuum:

1. PRESENCE (PERSUASION) - Make eye contact with that person watching you withdraw cash from the ATM. Walk and maintain a cool, confident demeanor that shows you can take care of yourself. Don't engage the person. If he/she talks to you, be cordial, but curt.

2. VERBAL COMMANDS - The person has become a threat, either verbally or physically. With a loud, clear voice, order him/her to back off and leave the situation.

3. "HANDS ON" - Things go from bad to worse. The person has made physical contact with you. Now you can use your hands (or feet) to diffuse the threat and get away.

4. O/C SPRAY (PEPPER SPRAY) - The person threatening you gets the upper hand. Time to whip out the pepper spray, but you better know how to use it and what it feels like to be exposed to it. "If they are not presenting you with the threat of your life, you still have to stop them," says Bob. "You should be as trained on how to use pepper spray as you would with using a gun."

5. IMPACT TOOLS - If pepper spray doesn't work - or if you don't have pepper spray - you can use anything at your disposal to stop the attacker: Bob's beveled flashlight, his knife, your car keys, a windshield wiper, a rock, etc.

6. DEADLY FORCE - If the threat has escalated to where you believe your life is in danger, time to pull the pistol or anything to kill your attacker.

The level of force can rise quickly, even instantly. Lt. Mike Rallings, chief instructor of the Memphis Police Firearms Training Unit (FTU), says a good guideline is always match the level of the threat.

"If you are threatened with a weapon, then you can respond with a weapon," says Rallings. "You have to be in imminent fear of death or serious bodily harm, and you have to ask yourself, 'Has my fear really risen to the level where I would be justified in using deadly force?'"

The Action News 5 Investigators recommend Range USA (www.rangeusa.com) and Rangemaster (www.rangemaster.com) for handgun permit and advanced firearms training. We also recommend Krav Maga (www.midsouthkravmaga.com), Memphis Aikikai (3109 S. Mendenhall, (901) 795-0349) and USA Karate (www.karatememphis.com) for self-defense classes.

[saintsfanbrian]

"If you are threatened with a weapon, then you can respond with a weapon," says Rallings. "You have to be in imminent fear of death or serious bodily harm, and you have to ask yourself, 'Has my fear really risen to the level where I would be justified in using deadly force?'"

I am sorry, but if I am threatened by a person who is larger than me and appears to be able to cause me serious bodily harm with out a weapon I am likely to draw my weapon on them. I also personally know people who are quite smaller than I am that could beat me into oblivion before I knew it. Should I try to go hands on with them because they don't possess a physical weapon other than their hands or feet?

This is nuts....

Also, I should carry around O/C spray, impact tools and know karate/boxing before deploying a firearm?

TN does not have a duty to retreat clause in their self defense. I know it is my responsibility and will by duty to defend my position but the use of a firearm will be employed if I feel it necessary.

[Fallguy]

Hmmm.....not a "bad" piece.

But I did not learn the Deadly Force Continuum in my HCP class, but did when I worked at the Sheriff's office and had ASP baton training. Have to be careful about Mall Ninja status if you start carrying very many objects/weapons on you.

The Lt. for MPD did say it is a "guideline" to use as far as if they have a weapon you can use a weapon. But agree that the other person does not have to have a weapon to warrant the use of deadly force.

At least it is making people somewhat aware that they don't have to just take it and be a victim.

[Im Neero]

Brian, the statement never even touched on disparity of force issues like you're talking about, and it definitely didn't rule them out.

[Guest db99wj]

In today's world of anti news agencies, I am glad to see this, I am not even going to say pro-gun, but pro get off your butt and stand up for yourself and quit being a wuss and blaming everything on everyone else instead of the person they see in the mirror.

Umm, rant off.

[Guest Shooting Coach]

The Use of Force Continuum, or Response to Resistance, is designed for Law and Security Enforcement.

Best for the Armed Citizen is regular training to obtain;

Situational Awareness. Know what is going on around you, and observe actions and posturing of those around you. Have a plan to get you and your loved ones away from a threat.

Evasion. Do not get near or allow those you do not know or trust to get into close proximity to you.

Escape. Get away from a person you do not know or trust, by open hand defense or simply moving quickly (RUNNING) away from them.

Self Defense. If you cannot escape or evade an offender, you are in self defense mode and ANYTHING GOES. Eye gouge, nerve strike, WHATEVER.

I instruct defensive sprays, and THEY DO NOT ALWAYS WORK. If you spray one who is under the influence, not only will it likely not work, but you will probably wear it too. Since you are likely NOT under the influence, it WILL work on you! If you can access, extend, and use a Baton, you have time and space to escape, or to access your firearm. If you do not train regularly, you will not use the Baton properly, and you can get injured.

Lethal Force. If you are in IMMINENT (means right now) threat of serious injury or death, lethal force is justified. A third party may be defended by lethal force if an imminent threat of serious injury or death exists.

Do not put all your defensive eggs in one basket. If you cannot get to your handgun, you must have another method to get time and distance. This allows escape or time to access your handgun, if you are in fear of imminent serious injury or death.

Yes, I repeated the deal about Imminent Threat of Serious Injury or Death. Is that a hint?

[ZenDog]

A decent piece for the mainstream news, I think.

We were trained and tested on the deadly force continuum in my HCP class, with a fair amount of training on disparity of force. Made a lot of sense then, makes sense now.

[Guest 270win]

I learned in my AR concealed handgun license class issues regarding disparity of force, what is a threat to life/limb, and what is not. A man who is disabled and cannot escape his attacker could be viewed legal when using deadly force against an attacker without a weapon. Same if a female is attacked by a large man with bare fists.

I learned out of my class in Arkansas basically if you can get away from an attacker in public safely, it is best to do so. If you are cornered by three thugs who threaten to kill you, then you are probably justified in upping the ante. Each case is different, but deadly force should be the last resort when in public. It is easier and cheaper to try to escape without using deadly force than using it i'm sure, even if TN is a stand your ground state.

Now when it comes to someone threatening with a weapon or you fear grave bodily harm due to possible disparity, attempted robbery, or other violent felony, then protect yourself with the most effective means.

[Guest 270win]

We were advised in my license class that if carrying a handgun, do not carry other defensive articles like pepper spray, blackjack, or club because they are all not effective and a crazy prosecutor (there are a few out there) could pose in court if you are indicted "Why did this man not use his slapper or pepper spray instead of a firearm?"

[Guest David Waldrip]

I can't say this as fact, but were I a betting man, I'd bet Andy Wise influenced the process of getting this story to the air. He is now behind the scenes at Channel 5 after his contract expired at Channel 3 at the end of December.

Go Andy.

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

We were advised in my license class that if carrying a handgun, do not carry other defensive articles like pepper spray, blackjack, or club because they are all not effective and a crazy prosecutor (there are a few out there) could pose in court if you are indicted "Why did this man not use his slapper or pepper spray instead of a firearm?"

a flashlight with a beveled end for striking

That is why many people I know carry a gun, knife, and flashlight. If they have to use a gun, and they get a crazy prosecutor, "well, a flashlight isn't (technically) a weapon, and I can't very well open boxes with my gun."

[Guest db99wj]

I can't say this as fact, but were I a betting man, I'd bet Andy Wise influenced the process of getting this story to the air. He is now behind the scenes at Channel 5 after his contract expired at Channel 3 at the end of December.

Go Andy.

Yep, he is on an either 12 month or 24 month non compete clause that says he can't be on air, but he is definately working behind the scenes. Saw that announcement on the news too, or read it in the Liberal Appeal newspaper.

[saintsfanbrian]

Sorry, don't buy some of it. I don't know if my attacker knows Karate. I don't. They have a distinct advantage over me and could inflict severe bodily harm. If they were to "start something with me and I had no clear means of removing myself from the situation and told them repeatedly in a loud voice to leave me alone and they continued, the displaying of a firearm would probably convince them. If they continued to advance then they are looney tunes and there is no telling what they would do to me. I would be in fear for my life and severe bodily harm.

[Fallguy]

Yes, I repeated the deal about Imminent Threat of Serious Injury or Death. Is that a hint?

I would just add that the threat of Imminent Death or Serious Injury does not have to be "actual" but a "reasonable belief".

T.C.A. 39-11-611 Self-defense.

(2)

Notwithstanding § 39-17-1322, a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where the person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury, if:

(A)

The person has a

reasonable belief

that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury;

(

The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury is real, or

honestly believed to be real

at the time; and

©

The

belief

of danger is founded upon

reasonable grounds

.

[Guest Shooting Coach]

Dear Fall Guy

You are absolutely right. If you believe in your heart that you are in IMMINENT threat of serious injury or death, use of lethal force is appropriate.

If someone pointed an empty or inoperable firearm at you, you would not actually be in imminent danger, but by not knowing it was empty or inoperable, it is reasonable to assume that you would have believed you were in harm's way.

With this said, you may well have to convince a Grand Jury of your belief of imminent danger. If you truly believed you were in danger, you will be fine.

[strickj]

This is where I would have an upper hand If god forbid I had to shoot someone and had to face a jury.It would not take much at all for them to look at me and belive I was in fear of my life even if the bg had no weapon

[Fallguy]

Dear Fall Guy

You are absolutely right. If you believe in your heart that you are in IMMINENT threat of serious injury or death, use of lethal force is appropriate.

If someone pointed an empty or inoperable firearm at you, you would not actually be in imminent danger, but by not knowing it was empty or inoperable, it is reasonable to assume that you would have believed you were in harm's way.

With this said, you may well have to convince a Grand Jury of your belief of imminent danger. If you truly believed you were in danger, you will be fine.

Very true. With a little luck (and good aim) my side of the story will be the only one they hear.

[Guest canynracer]

fear me...lmfao!!!

it wasnt a BAD story...it was a decent one. I think it was good for the "HEY GOOD GUYS, WAKE UP, PROTCET YOURSELVES!!!!"

and a "HEY BAD GUYS, THE GOOD GUYS ARE PACKING"

[Guest jaypee]

Fallguy, thanks very much for presenting the TCA. You might find it interesting to know that the Tennessee statute is almost identical to the California statute. Thank all of you guys for some really responsible and thoughtful comments. They were a big help. I taught the Tennessee HCW class ten years ago and was fairly active as a volunteer firearms instructor at a local police academy. But I've been inactive as an instructor for the past seven years and I'm feeling a little rusty around the gills on the latest thinking in self defense law. I've made arrangements with an instructor friend to sit through the law block of his next HCP class for a refresher. In today's world it never hurts. Best wishes and thanks again. Again, you guys were a big help.

JayPee

Edited March 7, 2008 by jaypee
add info, correct grammar

[Fallguy]

No problem Jaypee!! I hope I can work out coffee/lunch with you, Mars and whoever else on the 28th when I'm passing through.

[deerslayer]

I can't say this as fact, but were I a betting man, I'd bet Andy Wise influenced the process of getting this story to the air. He is now behind the scenes at Channel 5 after his contract expired at Channel 3 at the end of December.

Go Andy.

Yep, Andy Wise did in fact do some of the interviews.