Justifiable?

[TripleDigitRide]

This hardly seems like a justifiable shooting to me, but what say you?

Just a few days ago, a co-worker of my fathers was at home on his computer when he heard a very loud "thud" and gunshots. He ran into the other room, grabbed his AR15, and headed out the door.

When he got outside his apartment door, he noticed his neighbors door had been kicked in, and noticed he had been shot. As he looked around, he noticed 2 men running away from the building, roughly 70-80 yards away. He immediately put his sights on one of the males, shooting him in the leg. He then fired two rounds at the second male, but missed both times. Both "suspects were able to flea the area.

When the police arrived, they found his neighbor dead from multiple gunshot wounds to the chest. During qustioning from the police, he in fact informed them that he had shot one of the "suspects" in the leg, and both men were able to get away. From what I understand, the LEO's wrote down the serial number of the AR15, then told him to put the gun back in his apartment. No charges were filed against my fathers co-worker.

Based on the facts given in the story (true story), was his co-worker justified in shooting?

By the way, the police did locate one of the suspects when he checked himself into the ER with a gunshot wound to the leg.

Edited October 16, 2008 by TripleDigitRide

[NuTcAsE]

No, there apparently was no direct threat to him.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

First, what state does your father's co-worker live in?

Second, legal or not, his course of action was blatantly stupid. 70-80 yards away, if that is an accurate statement? Those two people could have been anyone. Even if they were the suspects, anyone else could have entered that large of a space and became a target as well... not to even mention errant rounds striking God knows what if this is a populated area.

It sounds like this guy needs to learn his place in the food chain, and use a **** ton of better judgment in the future. Fleeing individuals aren't threats. He isnt a DM (sniper) and this isn't Iraq... taking shots like that is unwarranted and totally ignorant.

This story doesn't add up. It wreaks of BS or misstated facts. If true, it's just bad all the way around... from dip**** popping off the .223/5.56 rounds from half to full football lengths at fleeing individuals (who could have been anyone), to the cops simply returning his rifle and no further course of action taken.

Just my $0.02.

[ShaunM]

First, what state does your father's co-worker live in?

Second, legal or not, his course of action was blatantly stupid. 70-80 yards away, if that is an accurate statement? Those two people could have been anyone. Even if they were the suspects, anyone else could have entered that large of a space and became a target as well... not to even mention errant rounds striking God knows what if this is a populated area.

It sounds like this guy needs to learn his place in the food chain, and use a **** ton of better judgment in the future. Fleeing individuals aren't threats. He isnt a DM (sniper) and this isn't Iraq... taking shots like that is unwarranted and totally ignorant.

This story doesn't add up. It wreaks of BS or misstated facts. If true, it's just bad all the way around... from dip**** popping off the .223/5.56 rounds from half to full football lengths at fleeing individuals (who could have been anyone), to the cops simply returning his rifle and no further course of action taken.

Just my $0.02.

I agree they should chrarge him with at least reckless endangerment, based on the way story is told.

[TripleDigitRide]

First, what state does your father's co-worker live in?

Second, legal or not, his course of action was blatantly stupid. 70-80 yards away, if that is an accurate statement? Those two people could have been anyone. Even if they were the suspects, anyone else could have entered that large of a space and became a target as well... not to even mention errant rounds striking God knows what if this is a populated area.

It sounds like this guy needs to learn his place in the food chain, and use a **** ton of better judgment in the future. Fleeing individuals aren't threats. He isnt a DM (sniper) and this isn't Iraq... taking shots like that is unwarranted and totally ignorant.

This story doesn't add up. It wreaks of BS or misstated facts. If true, it's just bad all the way around... from dip**** popping off the .223/5.56 rounds from half to full football lengths at fleeing individuals (who could have been anyone), to the cops simply returning his rifle and no further course of action taken.

Just my $0.02.

I wasn't there, so unless my father was lying to me, it was the truth.

A man died Sunday night after being shot during a robbery attempt at an east Tulsa complex earlier that day, making him the city's second homicide victim of the weekend and the 41st this year.

Billy Ray Ryder, 41, was shot after two men tried to rob him Sunday at his home at the Candy Arms apartments near 13th Street and 73rd East Avenue, police reports show.

On Saturday, Billy Wayne Alexander, 25, was fatally shot at his home at the Sawmill Apartments, 12938 E. 35th St., police said.

No arrests have been made in either killing, Officer Leland Ashley said.

Ryder was shot about 12:30 p.m. Sunday when a robbery attempt ended in a gun battle that spilled into the street just outside the Candy Arms, police reports show.

Two men had forced their way into Ryder's home, argued for a short time and then shot

the victim in the shoulder as three witnesses looked on, police said. The pair fled to the street below, where a neighbor opened fire on them with a rifle.

The assailants left in a newer-model, silver Nissan Maxima or Altima. It was last seen going east on 11th Street through Memorial Drive, reports show.

Ryder was taken to a hospital, where he died.

The assailants are described as two black men, between 5 feet 5 and 5 feet 10 inches tall with medium builds, police reported.

Both were wearing dark hooded shirts and black jeans and are believed to be between the ages of 18 and 22.

Ryder had been robbed about two weeks ago, and detectives are questioning witnesses and neighbors to determine whether the two cases are related, police said.

Neighbor Jolanta Alonso said Sunday that shootings and drug activity are regular occurrences in the area.

Alexander was slain when a group of men entered his home at the Sawmill Apartments and shot him multiple times.

Witnesses told police that five to eight black men were involved, Detective Kevin Hill said.The assailants fled in a 1999 or 2000 white Chevrolet four-door car.

Police are uncertain of the motive, Hill said.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

I wasn't there, so unless my father was lying to me, it was the truth.

Not implying he's a liar, in any way. But unless your father was there during this incident (which I'm assuming he wasn't), then he was told this story by his co-worker. He then told you. You now told us.

That was my point. It was 3rd-hand knowledge. A lot usually gets lost or misconstrued in those cases.

[TripleDigitRide]

Not implying he's a liar, in any way. But unless your father was there during this incident (which I'm assuming he wasn't), then he was told this story by his co-worker. He then told you. You now told us.

That was my point. It was 3rd-hand knowledge. A lot usually gets lost or misconstrued in those cases.

Very true!

According to the story, a neighbor did use some sort of rifle to engage in a "gun battle" with the bad guys. My father never mentioned a "gun battle", and during several conversations, the co-worker never mentioned a "gun battle". According to my father, his co-worker told him on several occasions, the bad guys were running in the oposite direction when he decided to fire multiple rounds in their direction, wounding one. He also stated in nearly as many convorsations that the distance between him and the suspects was roughly 70-80 yards.

Based on all the information my father has received from his co-worker (the shooter), my father spoke with him tonight and informed him that even though no charges have been brought against him as of yet, it may be a good idea to contact an attorney just in case the police decide to file charges.

Edited October 16, 2008 by TripleDigitRide

[Guest canynracer]

I would say that if I heard gunshots, I would run...it would suck to have someone shoot me for trying to get away from danger...

how did he know the people he shot at were bad guys?

[Guest Revelator]

This neighborhood sounds like a great place to do some SHTF urban defensive practice. I've been looking for somewhere I can take my .308 and let 'er out. Live, moving human targets, and best of all little or no interference from those pesky authorities.

Edited October 17, 2008 by P. Stegall

[Volzfan]

Frome the first account it sounds completely unjustified.

His name wouldn't be Paul Kersey would it?

[molonlabetn]

Shooting people running away at that distance isn't cool (unless they've planted a bomb and are holding the detonator, I suppose). But, in a wierd twist of poetic justice, I honestly wouldn't have complained if the thugs who murdered that fellow had got capped... can't say I would have done the same thing though, not being involved in the situation from the beginning, especially.

[DWARREN123]

Justice is best served swiftly! If they were the ones who did it then I would say yes.

[TripleDigitRide]

how did he know the people he shot at were bad guys?

That was the same question my father and myself had for him. He admitted to NOT seeing a gun as they were running. two black guys running away from a murder scene was all the evidence this tool needed.

[alwayspackin]

If this guy did in fact shoot someone that was running from in the parking lot, he should be charged. It could have been anybody. If the victim goes to court and sues this guy he will lose. There is no way he can justify shooting someone just out for there daily jog. His days of owning a gun are numbered if I was guessing. There was no immediate threat towards this fellow. He didn't witness anything. This guy could have become a murder for trying to do what he thought was the right thing.

[DaveTN]

Tulsa… as in Oklahoma?

Does the state have a Fleeing Forcible Felon statute?

Did he know the neighbor had been shot when he opened fire?

The shoot is not one that I would make, but is probably lawful if he saw that the neighbor had been shot. Hearing gun shots and seeing someone running won’t cut it.

If the fleeing felon pointed a gun at me; it’s okay to kill him.

In Tennessee v. Garner the SCOTUS has held that Police Officers may use deadly force to prevent escape only if the Officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious injury to the Officer or others. I don’t know if a citizen would be treated any differently; I doubt it.

EDIT: Nevermind… I just read post #13.

All that typing and thinking for nothing.

Edited October 17, 2008 by DaveTN
Because I did not read ALL the posts.

[Guest canynracer]

That was the same question my father and myself had for him. He admitted to NOT seeing a gun as they were running. two black guys running away from a murder scene was all the evidence this tool needed.

'nough said