molonlabetn

Ever tried a Sig P239 or an H&K P2000? Those are very similar in size, have excellent grips, and are available in .357sig... (I'm thinking about selling my P239, as a matter of fact...)

Not that there's anything wrong with proper training... As long as practical proficiency is the objective.

Greetings from mid-TN... Glad to have ya'!

I'll do anything to compensate for my tactical un-worthiness...

I suppose it's more appealing to collect badges of 'badassery' without the risk of being obligated to go into harm's way. Glory without sacrifice...

Aye, their revolvers and full-size pistols are fine and dandy... well-made on tooling from other manufacturers. I wouldn't hesitate to carry a 92/99/100/101, or one of their revolvers... but their Millenniums had some teething problems, and their pocket .22s and .25s have even more issues than their Beretta counterparts. Unfortunatly, my experience was with an example of each of the latter

Grey areas like that will rarely work in your favor... doesn't sound like a loop-hole to me. Even in the best scenario, you'll still be arrested and charged, even if you are eventually aquitted. I would rather work to repeal the restriction on carrying where liquor is served, across the board...

I've heard the MilPros are vastly improved... I hope so, my initial experiences with Taurus left much to be desired. But, if it fits your hand... sounds like a good bet to me. tnroadrunner carries one, if he sees this I hope he'll chime in with his evaluation... I haven't handled the new ones much, myself.

Just like any weapon, they come with responsibility... I'll bear your caution in mind. I don't pay vet bills either though... I'm sure there won't be any issues... most of the PBs that I have met were relatively sweet dogs, just wound-up a bit tight when it came to their territory and owners. I love 'real' dogs, can't stand ankle-biters...

Very true, especially if there are barriers which must be penetrated while still carrying some energy through them.

Heh... yeah, that was more of a non-event, but the situation was humorous just because of the pro vs. con discussion, and the looks on their faces...

We know... But at some point, terminal effectiveness does come into play. That is what we are discussing. To say it is 'meaningless' merely avoids the question.

First of all... I wouldn't trade. You won't get much for either of them... I'd try to sell one, if necessary. You'd get at least another $100 that way. If it were me, I'd ditch the 9mm for the reason #2, and then buy .45acp in bulk... Or, I'd ditch the .45 and buy a Springfield EMP 9mm... Having common calibers is nice... But, in the end you ought to decide based on which one you feel like parting with, if either. Since, even though they are difference calibers, there's alot to be said for having multiple guns which fit and function the same, if you're using them both for carry.

They have several weapons for rent (mostly Glocks)... but even some class III stuff. Plus, I'm sure that you'll get to shoot some of the guns which the rest of us bring.

Indeed it does. At rifle velocities, fragmentation is one of the most efficient ways to prevent over-penetration, and enhance energy dump inside of a human-sized target... At regular handgun velocities, however, fragmentation generally cuts effective penetration in half... much like a load of bird-shot from a shotgun... causing a wide area of devastation, albeit shallow. The problem with fragmentation, however, is that the velocity and individual structural integrity of both the projectile and the target are both critical in determining whether there will be success or failure in the effective delivery of the projectiles' energy. Too low of a velocty is usually the more common culprit in overpenetration... This is almost the opposite the problem with expansion, since JHPs can be rendered inop by non-elastic barriers (clothing, construction materials), but will otherwise expand reliably across a wider velocity range. If I had my way, I'd carry a pistol which fired 200gr 3/4" wadcutters at 1000fps... No need to worry about expansion, since the projectile is already 'expanded' to the full diameter which most .45 JHPs achieve, and carries the same energy.

Rabbi, I understand what you're saying, that rehashing this topic frustrates you. Please believe me when I say that the main reason for having this discussion, is because we enjoy it... it makes us think. None of us are trying to force you to agree with us, or even listen/read.

This is an excerpt from a similar thread on PDO, which I submitted earlier this year: Posted Jan 4, 2007 @ 2:22:22 pm CST Good Dialogue... From what I gather from your statement, I basically agree with you in that the kinetic energy of a projectile, and it's surface area are the largest contributors in terminal effectiveness (all else being equal). I think I agree with you, for the most part. I just think of momentum as more of an indicator of penetration potential. Of course way down range (with a rifle) that momentum would now translate to more energy and velocity. I just don't feel as much concern for that at point blank range where I think a personal defense handgun would be used. Of course you need adequate penetration, but you also want rapid energy delivery and don't want over penetration. Rapid energy delivery could be perceived as the opposite of penetration. Rapid energy delivery, in my mind, would result in more "stopping power" (if I dare to use such a vague and indefinable term). I want that hydrostatic shock to stop an attacker as opposed to the penetration, organ/tissue damage and lethality (as I would want hunting). Being a hunter, I understand your hunting analogy- I just see the two situations as needing a different set of ballistic characteristics to be ideal (just as I would see military combat as requiring yet another set of characteristics). I follow your use of the term 'stopping-power', and as long as this rapid, localized energy dump takes place within effective proximity to a vital organ which will ensure the target's incapacitation, the purpose has been successfully accomplished. I agree. It is also further evidence why shot-placement truly is paramount.On the other hand, I don't subscribe to the opinion that hunting, personal defense or warfare are exclusive of one another... At least not in terms of the most effective application of terminal ballistics for the job. Humans are animals too. A priority of a successful hunt is the swift incapacitation of the prey. In this area, Hunting and Warfare are most alike, in that lethality is desireable. On the other hand, in terms of personal defense it is just as desireable for the target to merely lose the will to fight, in this area personal defense and warfare are very similar. Ball ammo is only used in warfare because it is mandated by international law, cheap, and also because it enhances penetration of hard-targets. Even though elk don't wear body-armor, the point of shooting them is the same. We need them to be dead or taken out of action quickly. Exotic loads are legal for hunting, and body-mass dictates bullet-weight for given cartridges. Un-armored human predators don't require as much penetration as medium-sized game, but require more than varmints and pests... But it all boils down to being able to penetrate sufficiently while carrying destructive energy to vitals. Just having lots of destructive energy, or just having lots of penetration is inefficient and imbalanced... ultimately a waste of energy (at the very least ) The whole purpose of 'dum-dum' bullets, such as JHP, JSP, and such, is to dissipate the bullet's momentum in a shorter distance through greater surface area, by displacing more material per unit of distance traversed... Provided that there is sufficient kinetic energy to overcome the elasticity of the medium and initiate expansion of the projectile. Very high-velocity, light projectiles don't expand reliably either, since they usually carry more energy than can be absorbed or retained by the structure of the projectile, depending on their construction. The Sierra bullets mainly used by Cor-bon in their pistol-ammo have low structural-integrity, thus fragmenting easily. Fragmentation reduces penetration, since the mass of the projectile is lost rapidly, and momentum along with it. The newest kid-on-the-block, Barnes Solid Copper hollow-points (Cor-Bon uses them in their DPX line), have excellent structural integrity. I eagerly await more companies loading them in their ammo. Under-penetration is far more of a problem than over-penetration, in any situation. IMHO molonlabetn

I'd say it's older than that... I can see the Ancient Sumerians arguing with each other over whether a big, heavy club was better than a light, fast-swinging club... There would always be the fellow who would come knock their heads together and tell them to use whatever they had, just make sure they made contact! Or, perhaps the Scots arguing with the Persians about whether a huge Claymore was better than a Scimitar...

1: -"Shot placement counts for far more than bullet weight or speed." This is true, however, many people take this ideology to the extreme... because, if we follow that logic to its ultimate conclusion, we'd all be carrying match-grade .22s. Precision is important, but once accomplished, these other issues of effectiveness are just as important, in order to stop the BG as quickly as possible. 2: -"Compatibility between the shooter and his caliber is more important than caliber itself." This is also true, but that does not necessarily mean that a smaller, weaker gun/caliber will fit better than a larger, more powerful one... 3: -"No one cartridge is a "death ray" guaranteed one stop shot." Of course! We're not arguing in absolutes here... effectiveness is a matter of degree. Some cartridges produce effects which come closer to 100% 'one-shot-stop' than others... (the 120mm main gun on an Abrams comes to mind) On a much smaller scale, we are attempting to rank which qualities are likely to be most effective, from cartridges which are reasonable to launch from a hand-held platform... fully realizing that the 'death-ray' is still several years from coming to the civilian market. I don't think we entirely disagree, but it is good to be open-minded about perceived superiority based on what some believe to be insignificant ballistic differences, all other variables not considered (since marksmanship is not uniform or predictable).

I like orange cream-slushies...

I'm very proud of her! She was the only one shooting .45, and she did just as well as everybody else She chewed a nice little hole out of the bulls-eye at close range, and was very consistent even out at 15yd! We'll be getting her some good replacement sights, probably some XS Big Dot, or the like... And, of course, some pink grips... Good job sweetie

I dunno that it's so much about comparing the cartridges themselves, as it is a comparison of what the best mass/velocity combination might be... It's pretty academic that projectiles with similar combinations of kinetic energy and momentum will destroy similar amounts of tissue, albeit with different wound-track profiles which are determined by the variable frontal area (equalized by using expanding projectiles). Once accepting that, it makes sense to conclude that from simply a terminal performance standpoint, a cartridge which is capable of producing more kinetic energy, more momentum, and launches a projectile with a larger surface area (assuming it still has sufficient sectional density to overcome the elasticity of the medium which it strikes), will produce a greater effect, given the same shot placement in relation to critical structures. In terms of the cartridges given, the .45acp does do all of those things. The main advantage given by 9mm, and other smaller cartridges, is the ability of the platform used to avail a higher quantity of successive shots which may or may not be necessary depending of the effectiveness of the initial shot, and the precision of its placement by the user.

Welcome Ben! As to the low buck 1911 options, I'd recommend looking at Rock Island Armory... a few folks on this forum own one (including my wife, who used it to qualify for her HCP this weekend)... Aside from some ammo issues (out-of-spec bulk reloads have caused 6 FRB* out of 250rd), it shot flawlessly, and was surprisingly accurate. It feeds new JHP ammo without any problems at all. *FRB = Failure to Return to Battery

That sounds like a good idea... I think it would increase the visibility of the photo gallery. I personally host nearly all of my own pictures, either on my provider's server or Photobucket... So, I really just need a place to link them.

It's a secret...