HCP Law Enforcement Class help

[BIG ROB]

I am currently writing a lesson plan for Law Enforcement encounters with HCP holders. This is for Law Enforcement officers who contact permit holders for various types of activities whether criminal or non-criminal.

I have my own thoughts but I would like to hear from those on the other side of the coin. Granted I cant necessarily tailor the tactics to please everyone but I would like your encounter with LE to be as plesant as it can be. I have been invited to teach this at a few different places that will impact a vast amount of officers.

Please do not turn this into a thread bashing cops. I welcome all advise or experiences that you can bring to the table. I would even like some stories whether positive or not so positive. Feel free to PM if you would rather discuss this in private.

[Worriedman]

I would think first and foremost, that what the LAW has to say should be the primary focus of the lesson plan.

In traffic stops:

I have never been hassled by a State Trooper over my HCP. Hand the drivers license and Permit card to them at the same time, always been handed back without comment.

County Sheriff's Department, two instances, one did the same, the second asked if I was armed, when answered in the affirmative, he asked where the weapon was, I told him, he simply said leave it there.

One local department stop, guy took my weapon, unloaded it and took it back to his car, chided me for carrying loaded, locked and cocked. When he brought it back, told me I could not load it and did not want to give me back my ammo.

Living under the old adage, "salute the man with the switchblade", I did not spout off or try and tell him the law, second car on the scene, Sgt. made the guy give me my ammo back and tried to get him to understand that an unloaded gun kind of defeated the purpose.

(I drive a couple of hundred thou. miles a year for work, I spend a certain amount of time on the right shoulder of the road.)

[oldogy]

An unhandled gun hurts no one. IMO, a person with a HCP or other reciprocal state permit should not be disarmed unless the officer has very good reason to do so.

oldogy

[Guest 6.8 AR]

There is no reason for a LEO to disarm a law abiding HCP carrier. If he does what the law states what crime and what threat is he?

The rest depends on what the stop is for.

I've always been thanked for identifying myself with both ID's out the window before

the LEO gets close to my car.

I don't know what to say, except somehow to convey to whoever is being taught to

temper their actions to fit the needs of the stop. Historically HCP holders don't have

violent tendencies, so treat them with the same respect as others. Teach them that,

above all, they are to be role models in society, while protecting themselves and

more good will come from the stop. That's the way I have been treated and it came

out better for both of us. In other words, mix communication skills and professional

attitude for a better, more respected cop and everyone wins.

[BIG ROB]

Good information so far. I planned to discuss the disarming but that is a fine line. While I rarely disarm someone there are times which I do. The permit holder may never fully understand why I did what I did. It works best if I explain the reasoning after the stop is over but that is not always possible.

Please keep it up. I really would like to have information from permit holder to pass on. I will way the good and bad and express it to the students. If you had an officer handle the stop professional, safely for everyone and it was a positive encounter I am particularly interested.

Thanks again

[Guest 6.8 AR]

This is good. A cop has to protect himself first and foremost, just to be able to do his job. You are no different than I. If you perceive a threat you have to deal with it.

If the cop starts out, while doing what he has to do, being courteous and respectful, he also has the right to expect it in return. Every time I've dealt with a cop doing his job, I always show respect, and so has he. Communication is a two way street. When it breaks down, the problems start.

[setsdw]

Pretty cool that you are doing this. I think most problems in this area stem for a lack of education on the law on both parties. It would be less stress for everyone if there were clearer directives. Thanks and let us know what you come up with.

[BIG ROB]

Worriedman,

I am a Bells native... I don't know why I am posting that but just thought I would share I guess.

[Fallguy]

I know many (if not all) LEOs prefer a HCP holder to notify them immediately that they are armed, but the law does not require this.

So if a HCP holder chooses not to inform I do not see any reason for a LEO to become rude or confrontational if later he learns the person is a HCP holder and is armed.

Most HCP holders are not trying to be trouble by not informing, I feel most are just trying not to introduce a separate subject that most likely irrelevant to the encounter.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Rob, I'm doing the same thing within my Dept. I've not submitted anything to POST yet, but I have been doing periodic non-POST, internal training on this for about a year or so (usually in rollcall).

Make sure and take a look at newer case law.

Although this is a different court district, we're incorporating this ruling and I would think it should at least be researched for your project.

Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for openly carrying guns

Cops need HCP info. Most people have no idea how little HCP training TN LE get.

Good luck.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Todd@CIS

[Il Duce]

Yall should come to Chattanooga for this.

[johnnychimpo]

[quote name=Todd@CIS;517482Make sure and take a look at newer case law.

Although this is a different court district' date=' we're incorporating this ruling and I would think it should at least be researched for your project.

Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for openly carrying guns

The article says New Mexico does not require a license for open carry.

And ""[r]elying on well-defined Supreme Court precedent, the Tenth Circuit and its sister courts have consistently held that officers may not seize or search an individual without a specific, legitimate reason."

In TN your required to have a HCP in order to carry a handgun.

[BigK]

Big Rob, I'd like to commend you for doing this. I've only been pulled over once in the past 15 years and it was before I got my HCP. However, I can honestly say that I've sought advice/instruction and mentally gone over how the incident should go dozens of times. Each time I consider whether there is anything else I could do to put the officer at ease and make sure he/she knows I'm not a BG.

While driving I keep mine off-body, so I don't have to fumble under my seat belt if I need it. This means it is likely visible from outside the car. I worry most about the 2nd officer coming up on the right seeing it and over-reacting. I'd never touch it, make a motion toward it, or let my hands get out of the LEO's sight, but I can only control my actions. I expect that 2nd officer to react appropriately too, but not to shoot me, LOL.

You guys put your life on the line every time you stop a car. So, I can easily see how any time you see a gun during a stop there's justification for reacting. Regardless of what you learn through this exercise, I hope none of you guys let their guard down for a second or get complacent in the face of the growing number of good guys with an HCP. A single under-estimated situation could be your last, so I hope all HCP holders realize this too when responding.

[Jonnin]

I have had nothing but positive experiences to date. Granted, its only been 3 or 4 speeding tickets or similar minor offenses, but when asked I provide my HCP and so far none have asked to see the gun or bothered me about it. The biggest scene I had was the officer saw my HCP as I flashed my DL, and asked if that was a permit, I showed it, he asked if I was armed (I was not), and he believed me (might as well, why lie when you are legal?) and that was that.

What to teach them? I do not know. Mostly, the officers need to understand that a guy with a permit, who admits he is armed, and who is not hostile nor doing anything major (you guys know the difference between speeding and holding up a store I would think) does not need to be told that a gun is dangerous and should be unloaded, nor should the person be disarmed or otherwise aggravated about it. Its ok to keep a wary eye on the citizen, to ask them to keep their hands in sight, and so forth, but anything more should be as a response either to the crime at hand (again, the LEO should know when the crime is important enough to justify additional precautions) or the attitude of the citizen (hostile, odd, threatening behaviors etc.).

I think I would feel that the LEO had a poor attitude or was on a power trip if my gun were taken from me, unloaded, etc and I would definately be grouchy if an insulting lecture were added to the mix. I do not like folks to touch my guns without permission. If a LEO crosses these lines over a traffic ticket when I am being friendly and accepting my ticket, the LEO is wrong and you can bet I am going to complain about it later to his superiors.

All in all, from my perspective, the LEOs do a pretty good job already. The biggest thing I hear about (and have not experienced) is the disarming/lecture thingy so the only thing that may need work is to explain exactly WHEN and WHY an officer should or should not disarm a citizen (or how to make this call, since its a judgement rather than exact of course). Otherwise, keep up the good work.

[vontar]

Make certain all your students know this website

Handgunlaw.us and how to use it.

It tells laws about each state they may travel to and from. They need to know the laws of the state when they cross the border. Some states are MUST INFORM the officer asap when stopped if armed.

Example on that site, a person delayed 40 seconds before telling an officer in MI he was armed even after showing the permit and was cited for not informing fast enough.

How they inform an officer should be planned so they don't appear panic-ed or rushed, as we all know a traffic stop is an unnerving event even if we feel we may not be in the wrong or even if we know we have been speeding.

I suggest something along the lines of the following, when the blue lights come on. Find a safe way to pull over, use proper signals.

Roll down your window, if of night time turn on dome light and place both hands on the wheel. (I never get my license or anything out early.)

I wait for the Officer to walk up to the window, he/she will introduce and (mind you I have not been stopped since getting my HCP, I was stopped about 3 months before but I have planned this next part)

Officer, I would like to inform I have my carry permit and I am armed today. (I plan to avoid using the word GUN based on some reading I have done as in a situation officers may react if in pairs if they hear the word gun)

Last time I was stopped with my hands still on the wheel one of the first things I was ask was if I had any weapons, which I did not. Don't be confused with TN being a not requiring you to inform, if they directly ask the question I understand we must answer truthfully. He then proceeded to ask for my license and reg. I told him my license was in my back pocket and I ask permission to reach for it. Remind them, no sudden movements, I also told him were my reg. was but it was in my visor above me so at least it was easy to get.

(BTW, if you are going to be teaching them, remind them before they leave the class how they can request a DUP HCP at the same time they apply for only 5 extra. Since DUP of HCP are allowed and it is easier to get them at the same time, however some DMV's get confused since you are not allowed a Dup of a DL)

[Guest friesepferd]

+1 for going over the dangers of taking someone elses gun.

just tell us to leave it where we is. or my favorite "alrighty. just dont touch yours and i wont touch mine"

[Guest mrkirker]

First of all, thank you for your service. It's gotta be a thankless task.

RE: The thread - I drive at odd hours, so I often pass by LEO's parked on the road side who swing in and eventully do a 'stop 'n see'. I always mention I have a 'carry' when I hand them my papers, and keep both hands in their sight line, and turn on the dome light. In all probability it's gonna show when they run my tag, anyway, so may as well be open about it. Soimetimes they ask where it's located. They always say "Thank you" when I mention it. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Frankly, I can't see LEO putting himself in a situation where someone in a car would have an opp to handle the firearm. The risk factor rises exponentially in such a setting.

Edited April 21, 2011 by mrkirker
spelling

[ttocswob]

This thread is a year old, the first eleven posts anyway. It would be good to hear the outcome of Big Rob's project.

[johnnychimpo]

I just realized how old it is. Not sure how I dug it up. I think my Tapatalk needs updating.