God did not create the universe, says Hawking

[Chucktshoes]

I'm surprised I haven't seen any Pastafarians come out of the woodwork in this thread.

[Guest Letereat!]

Read Sitchin's stuff about that - fascinating. Although I doubt if he has any more of it right than Van Daniken. The 12th Planet was his first, I think. OhShoot

Will do for sure

[Handsome Rob]

The one good thing about Trigem's "spewage" is that it reminded me that I needed to go put some whiskey in this glass of cola...

So maybe he really is doing God's work after all....

Hmmmm that there could be a universal truth. I myself have just polished off a drop of 18 year old Talisker. Refill required!

[Guest Letereat!]

The one good thing about Trigem's "spewage" is that it reminded me that I needed to go put some whiskey in this glass of cola...

So maybe he really is doing God's work after all....

LMAO:lol:

THE END

Out

[Guest Jamie]

Night Owl territory. Generally on after midnight in most markets. Sort of Alex Jones but including off the planet, too.

You can see some content streaming on the site:

Home - Coast to Coast AM

- OS

I'm usually awake at all hours, and see 2, 3, 4am etc. far more often than most people ever will.

I just don't usually have the TV or radio going... and if I do, I'd probably pass that sort of thing by and catch a rerun of something more interesting elsewhere.

[Handsome Rob]

I'm surprised I haven't seen any Pastafarians come out of the woodwork in this thread.

I just had to go Google 'pastafarian'

Sheer Genius!

[Daniel]

I have brought the flying spaghetti monster up before and just didnt feel like it this time.

[clarky07]

first, off topic. Why are so many people saying this is a terrible thread how could you ever start it this is a gun forum blah blah. The news in the OP is actually pretty interesting, more than worthy of a post in the off-topic forum. sheesh. if you want to read about guns, don't go to the off-topic forum.

now for the actual debate, which i found to be at least slightly interesting if not lacking anything to back up arguments from both sides. I personally see no reason religion and science can't peacefully co-exist. I don't think you can or should take the creation story literally, and to translate day to mean 24 hours in our current understanding is silly. There is no reason that any scientific theory can't fit within the bounds of the creation belief. You think it was the big bang, fine. Any reason God couldn't have started the big bang?

someone suggested that people believing the bible keep changing their story as they gain new understanding. Isn't that exactly how science works? It was completely excepted that the earth was flat until it wasn't. It was accepted that the earth was the center and the sun orbited it until it wasn't. Believing in parts of evolution is fact. Things evolve, mutate, etc all the time. On the other hand it takes a lot of faith to believe we all came from a single celled organism. Science simply can't explain it. Even Darwin changed his mind about evolution before he died.

There is no way to win this argument because both sides require faith. I'm equally confused by both sides that completely refuse to believe anything the other says is true. It seems much more likely to me that both are valid.

[Daniel]

Do you have a source for your statement that Darwin renounced evolution?

Charles Darwin Became a Christian on His Deathbed and Renounced Evolution - Unproven!

Summary of eRumor:

Charles Darwin, the author of THE SPECIES BY MEANS OF NATURAL SELECTION in 1859 and the champion of evolution, renounced his evolutionary theory and became a Christian on his deathbed. This was reported by noblewoman Lady Hope who said she visited Darwin at his home in England at the close of his life. She described him as reading the book of Hebrews in the New Testament of the Bible. She also said that he regarded his writings about evolution to be questions that people made into a religion. Lady Hope said Darwin asked her to conduct a meeting outside a summer house he owned so he could hear the singing of the hymns.

The Truth:

The question of whether Charles Darwin accepted Christianity and rejected evolution is an emotional and intense one. To many Christians, Darwin is a villain who articulated a godless creation. To others, he is a brilliant hero who led the way to an enlightened view of where we came from. There are researchers and authors who have worked hard to prove and disprove any notion that he converted to Christianity and TruthOrFiction.com's conclusion is that when all is said and done, there is not enough good evidence that the story is true. We stop short of declaring it fiction, but regard it as not sufficiently proven. The report about Darwin's change of heart comes from one person, Lady Hope, an energetic Nineteenth Century Christian, while many members of Darwin's family denied it and there is nothing from Darwin's friends, colleagues, his own statements or writings to substantiate it. If Darwin did experience something so dramatic as a conversion to Jesus Christ and a complete revision of the theory of evolution that characterized his life and work, there isn't a shred of evidence of it outside of the claims of Lady Hope.

The book THE DARWIN LEGEND by James Moore is one of the most recent and cautious analyses about the Darwin conversion story. For many years, detractors claimed that Lady Hope either didn't exist or never visited Darwin. Moore demonstrates that she did indeed exist and may very well have visited him. He also concludes, however, that her account of what happened is not reliable.

A response to Moore's book is TRUE SCIENCE AGREES WITH THE BIBLE by Malcolm Bowden. His attention to detail is valuable reading, but in trying to argue that the conversion story may be true, he has to do a lot of speculating about what Lady Hope, Darwin, or Darwin's family might have been thinking.

[Punisher84]

I JUST WANTED TO BE INCLUDED!!!!

[clarky07]

Do you have a source for your statement that Darwin renounced evolution?

Apparently not. Upon further review, it seems that is speculation at best, much like the rest of this thread. Though from my reading it doesn't seem entirely impossible. I would guess that if anything it would have only been a change in thought on part of it, and not all. I apologize, carry on.

[Guest Jamie]

I JUST WANTED TO BE INCLUDED!!!!

Well, grab a drink, pick a side, and start typing... Ya got as much of a chance of being right as anybody else here does.

[Guest Letereat!]

Originally Posted by Chucktshoes

I'm surprised I haven't seen any Pastafarians come out of the woodwork in this thread

Had to look that up as well. I am sold, id like to convert immediately. How does one go about that. Who must I repent to etc.. Where can I gtet a copy of their sacred texts and teachings.

[Guest 270win]

I will say I have a lot of questions when I get to heaven. I look forward to when I get there and can get all my why and how answered. There are some things we will never know. I think that God likes to keep things a mystery for us and think about maybe it gives some people faith like me. I cannot control everything. I'm not the best, but I have to say I'm glad God is in control of this mess here on Earth.

In detail, what God did, we'll never know because we weren't there...that's my opinon. I'll find out when I'm gone from this Earth and on to heaven. I do believe he did however he did it.

This is definately good weekend hunting camp, fishing boat, have a cold beer, wine, bourbon talk. Take your pick.

[Guest Jamie]

I will say I have a lot of questions when I get to heaven. I look forward to when I get there and can get all my why and how answered. There are some things we will never know. I think that God likes to keep things a mystery for us and think about maybe it gives some people faith like me. I cannot control everything. I'm not the best, but I have to say I'm glad God is in control of this mess here on Earth.

In detail, what God did, we'll never know because we weren't there...that's my opinon. I'll find out when I'm gone from this Earth and on to heaven. I do believe he did however he did it.

This is definately good weekend hunting camp, fishing boat, have a cold beer, wine, bourbon talk. Take your pick.

And I guess my main problem is with people that say "we can't know that", and either don't have the courage or the curiosity to ask those questions NOW, and try to find some of the answers.

I've never been much on "because I said so" or "you're not smart enough to grasp that", or even "you're not SUPPOSED to ask that" sort of answers. And I'm certainly not going to trust the word of people that obviously have never asked themselves.

As far as I'm concerned, asking questions and finding answers is good, and blindly accepting something somebody else said, and complying with it just because they said so is just plain evil.

No, I don't expect to know everything, or ever be able to learn the answer to anything I question, but I'll certainly be found trying, even when those questions end up generating even more questions than answers.

Oh, and this isn't aimed at you, Razorback, it's just the thoughts that your post triggered.

[Guest Letereat!]

And I guess my main problem is with people that say "we can't know that", and either don't have the courage or the curiosity to ask those questions NOW, and try to find some of the answers.

As far as I'm concerned, asking questions and finding answers is good, and blindly accepting something somebody else said, and complying with it just because they said so is just plain evil.

No, I don't expect to know everything, or ever be able to learn the answer to anything I question, but I'll certainly be found trying, even when those questions end up generating even more questions than answers. JAMIE

I was pondering this very thing two nights ago. THose who do not question; are they truly gullible or just happy to follow the status quo cause its safe, comfortable and easy? One question generally leads to an answer, that poses another question and so on and so forth. Many times the answers are very disconcerting and i think most people simply bow out then and decide the truth is just too scary, too harsh to face "it cant be tru".

For instance When I first came to the personal conclusion that Religion ingeneral was institutional state sanctioned braain washing of the masses for the purpose of social controll and unity of thought with the added bonus of debasing, demeaning, destroying and literally taking what they would from the heritics who would dare question authority (Spanish Inqusition and the Catholis church in general) it was a hard pill to swallow.Then you realize that the truth has been porposely supressed adn hidden. It generated whole host of questions, anger, feelings of decite and confusion etc. But then you work through all those issues and you genuinly gain wisdom and understanding..... that brings serenity. I can Honestly say without question I am happier, more content, filled with a sense of destiny and Love for my family than I ever was under the yoke of Christianity. Something a Religious Zealot will never understand, accept or experience.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Letereat!

[Guest 6.8 AR]

What happened before the Big Bang? What was around before the Big Bang? I saw it mentioned about

a hundred pages back and then nothing more on it. This was about Hawking's belief about God not being

the creator. Not that it has drifted that much, which is fine, but you can't just say it happened with any

scientific proof, any more than you can say God, or some higher order didn't have anything to do with

it. Both sides of this discussion can't prove one way or the other, and the missing entity to me, is faith.

You can go so far with science and then the answers seem to become like distant stars. Then the science

is not so certain, again. Where do you make the distinction between scientific explanations and faith

starting to merge with science? I think I'll stick to faith until you can prove it unworthy. Faith also allows

people to believe in themselves in order to reach a higher understanding through science, language,

social structures and many other human endeavors. Instead of rejecting something because you don't

know the answer, faith, at least allows you to continue making the attempt.

[Guest Letereat!]

Agreed ,However Faith Is not Limited to belief In God. It can also be applied to the Belief that the God We hav eBeen Presented with in Religious Texts Etc Is a Gross Distortion of Who he really is. "Faith is the substace of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" right. Have you ever considered the substance of hope and evidence can go both ways. Faith in God, The Biblicle God that is, or Faith that the Biblicle representation of God is just not So.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Letereat!

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I didn't say you couldn't use faith in any specific way, did I? But I did say that faith is

sometimes what you have to rely on. Your faith could be in the devil, or Michio Kaku,

but it is still your faith, and you define it. I'm not disagreeing with you. Others use their

faith in God.

[Guest Letereat!]

Understand. So we at least agree on Faith. thats a Start.

[Guest Jamie]

I'm going to make a U-turn here, and pose some questions and thoughts that the answers to may be the best argument for god... or gods... than anything a person could come up with in arguing for the Bible, or for any one particular religion's version of god.

One, has anybody noticed, in all the scientific studies involving quantum physics and such, that there is nothing that one could really call solid matter? Ever atom of anything, if you keep breaking it down to it's individual components, ceases to be anything but energy. Just a few bits of energy, spinning around other bits. Nothing more than a pattern or patterns of energy, giving the illusion of solidity. Sort of the way the electrical patterns of your thoughts create... well... you, me... all of us as individuals.

( And just what exactly is "energy" anyway? What is IT composed of? )

And to take that to a larger scale, how about solar systems? Looks a lot like a gigantic model of an atom, to me. And galaxies now, if you continue, could be a sort of molecules or even cells...

Then there's the recently discovered "dark matter" that apparently makes up a much larger portion of the universe than the "regular" stuff... but that no one really knows what is. Or maybe the "dark energy that is apparently forcing everything apart at an inexplicable rate, when things should be slowing down.

What if all these things... the "big bang" included, are just part of something else's life cycle or process?

What if we are part of something else, but something that isn't even aware of our existence, just as we aren't aware of all the bacteria and such that inhabit our own bodies? Y'all think the average person could handle knowing that they were really that insignificant?

I figure that if the human race doesn't end up destroying it's self, it probably will, through the various sciences, end up confirming that there is indeed a god, or "higher power", at least. But I doubt very seriously if the average person will be able to deal with what may be learned, or the true nature of what is discovered.

In the end, although all the arguments and discussions concerning the bible and it's god are amusing, and sometimes interesting, it's the answers to all of the above that I think will end up confirming what no biblical studies ever hope to.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Jamie

[Guest trigem]

N

If, however, you'd rather continue discussing religious beliefs without actually reading and understanding the text from which those beliefs stem, then I'll bow out - I have no interest in discussing something with someone so closed-minded they won't even pick up the most common book on earth in order to have some understanding of my perspective.

+1

[Guest Jamie]

Well it seems that Prof. Hawking managed to get several religions bent out of shape at him... and they've come out swinging.

Not that it's really a surprise or anything...

Religious leaders hit back at Hawking

I do love this bit though:

The Bible simply isn't interested in how the Universe came into being.

[Smith]

Well it seems that Prof. Hawking managed to get several religions bent out of shape at him... and they've come out swinging.

Not that it's really a surprise or anything...

Religious leaders hit back at Hawking

I do love this bit though:

i always find it amusing the "religious leaders" they like to interview and quote. kinda like when they interview someone from the south. They seem to find the most redneck, backwoods guy in overalls.

[Handsome Rob]

Jamie, I didn't write this, it's quoted from a reply on another forum, but it's exactly what I was gonna type anyway, regarding the Universe as an Atom, Theory.

"You're not the first person to wonder that. The first thing to remember with this line of thinking is that we have no information about anything "outside" of this universe (if such a place exists at all)...so we're mostly limited to speculation (imaginative and mathematical).

In general, our universe does not seem to behave like a subatomic particle...so it's probably not...but then again, we cannot see our universe "from the outside".

But, there are scientific speculations that our universe is but one in an infinite number of other, equally valid universes or that our universe is contained within a larger meta-universe. Interesting to think about...no hard evidence though. Check out the "many worlds" theory, M-theory (string theory), etc."