Gas mileage and Fuel Treatment

[Guest db99wj]

First,

10% Ethanol mixed in your fuel is bad for several reasons, and it will decrease your mileage slightly. But unless you have a 2,500 mile range on a tank of fuel, it will not decrease the range of a tank of fuel 100 miles. Ethanol only has 66% of the energy (BTUs) of gasoline. (.66 * 10%) + (1.00 * 90%) = 96.6% as much energy from a gallon of gas with 10% ethanol added. You would expect power and mileage to be down 3.4%. So a car that gets 25mpg with real gas will get 24mpg (or more) with 10% ethanol mixed in and the engine will produce 96.6% as much power as it would with 100% gasoline (all other factors being equal, which they are not, as the on-board system will make adjustments to compensate–hence the theoretical 24mpg car will get better than 24…).

Second,

Running 93 octane gasoline in an engine designed for 87 will actually cause it to be harder to start (especially on colder days) and, contrary to popular belief, it can not and will not run better. Read up on what the octane rating means and you will see why. 93 octane does not burn cleaner, will not get you better mileage, is not magic and will not fix anything on your car, despite the cool signage at the gas station. Btw, many times when you fill up with (what you think is) 93 octane, all you get is 87 octane anyway.

Third,

Fuel filters only need to be replaced when they start getting restricted. Any sooner is a waste of money. Same with air filters–only on most cars you can simply blow those out and be fine. For. Years.

Fourth,

Much like changing fuel filters, injectors that are not clogged do not benefit from any type of cleaning solutions added to the tank. At all.

Finally,

A car with a 29 mpg EPA estimate is not going to get 51 miles per gallon under anywhere near normal driving conditions. Maybe after filling up at the top and coasting off of Monteagle you can get the trip computer to read that way, but that is just fooling the system… Hyper-milers have to drive in a very unorthodox manner to achieve the mileage numbers they get.

Kevin

ASE-Certified Master Technician

Ford-Certified Master Technician

12 years dealership driveability experience

Good info!

If I were to try to Hyper mile my Jeep, I would get stuck in the air. My aerodynamics suck that bad! LOL!

[ls3_kid]

I recall when "hi-test" was the new hip name for spensive gasoline.

Before that, they called the best stuff Ethyl (or possibly Ethel [as in Merman]).

Tetraethyllead - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Gimme two bits worth of that thar Ethel, and check the tares and earl."

He will still say, "Give me 50 cents of hi-test and a road map to California". lol

[10-Ring]

Agree 100% ethanol is the devil. I'll take my gas without food in it and my food without gas in it please. Several years ago a couple of friends and myself were adding acetone to our gas in very small quantities and it did marginally boost mileage. I remember that it had to be a very exact amount because if you used too much or not enough it would decrease mileage. I remember that it was about a wash after covering the price of the acetone so I quit doing it. One of my friends kept very detailed records and I just emailed him to ask him if he still has that info. I was thinking about it the other day, I have some different vehicles now and was thinking I might try it again and see what happens. I'll report back when I talk to him and post up his findings.

EDIT:

here is the article...Acetone In Fuel Said to Increase Mileage

Edited December 15, 2011 by 10-Ring

[TNMP40]

Really in a gun forum? There are plenty of car forums out there.

[Guest jackdm3]

General OFF-TOPIC!

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Yes, really in a gun forum. You will find a lot of things are discussed here. If you find a

thread around here concerning the shade of strickj's lipstick, I didn't start it.

There's something to be said in general off topic, occasionally.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Agree 100% ethanol is the devil. I'll take my gas without food in it and my food without gas in it please. Several years ago a couple of friends and myself were adding acetone to our gas in very small quantities and it did marginally boost mileage. I remember that it had to be a very exact amount because if you used too much or not enough it would decrease mileage. I remember that it was about a wash after covering the price of the acetone so I quit doing it. One of my friends kept very detailed records and I just emailed him to ask him if he still has that info. I was thinking about it the other day, I have some different vehicles now and was thinking I might try it again and see what happens. I'll report back when I talk to him and post up his findings.

EDIT:

here is the article...Acetone In Fuel Said to Increase Mileage

Thanks for posting that.

That's similar to the article I found several years back. The one I read recommended

2 oz's per 10 gallons regular gasoline. I noticed a slight increase in performance and

mileage. I admit I didn't perform any high falootin study, but the article was documented

well enough for me and the man who wrote it did study it over a long period of time.

Alcohol, on the other hand can't enhance gasoline, only dilute it. There just ain't enough

energy in an equivalent amount of alcohol compared to gas. All alcohol is is more green

crap from the green queers. Politically motivated and bad for food prices.

[Guest nicemac]

Mythbusters says Acetone does NOT increase mileage. LIke all additives I have ever seen, mileage gets worse.

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[daddyo]

Really in a gun forum? There are plenty of car forums out there.

So, what's the problem with discussing something not gun related in the OFF TOPIC sub-forum? Jeez.

[hornett22]

Yep,he's pretty much nailed it. I use sea foam or ATF (marvel mystery oil) in my fuel to decarbon the valves occasionaly but that's it. Anything heavier than fuel will break up carbon. Additives for anything else are a waste. My buddy has wasted a small fortune on STP over the years but what do I know. I'm just a mechanic. I just laugh and let him waste his money.

[Mike.357]

Nicemac, if i use regular 87 octane i get near 14 mpg. If i use 93 octane i get near 17.

99 F150, 4.2 liter, manual tran.

Computations based on gallons divided by miles.

How is this happening then?

[Guest nicemac]

Unless a vehicle is measured under carefully controlled conditions, I have no faith in the numbers.

I have measured many a vehicle's fuel economy. At the dealership we had a device that bypassed the in-vehicle fuel system and precisely metered fuel. I had customers complain that they were "only getting 6-8 mpg" when in my tests they war getting 16. Under normal driving conditions, and without some sort of mechanical or electrical malfunction, I have never really seen one vary from EPA estimates very much at all. And I have never seen one vary at all based on fuel grade (if the engine was designed to run 87).

No data show that engines designed for 87 run better or longer on 93.

* The Federal Trade Commission, in a consumer notice, emphasizes: "(I)n most cases, using a higher-octane gasoline than your owner's manual recommends offers absolutely no benefit. It won't make your car perform better, go faster, get better mileage or run cleaner."There is "no way of taking advantage of premium in a regular-grade car."

* "There is no gain. You're wasting money." Jim Blenkarn, in charge of powertrains, Nissan USA.

* "No customer should ever be deluded into thinking there's any value in buying a higher grade of octane than we specify." Paul Williamsen, technical expert and trainer, Toyota

* Premium, in fact, sometimes is worse fuel than regular. It resists knock because it's harder to ignite than lower-octane fuels. As a result, some engines won't start as quickly or run as smoothly on premium says Lewis Gibbs, consulting engineer and 45-year veteran at Chevron oil company. He's chairman of Technical Committee 7 on Fuels, part of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuels & Lubricants Council.

[Mike.357]

Thanks for the reply, i dunno how to explain it.

I'll do my next couple of fill ups with regular and see what happens. Have been running 93 for a while now. It definitely takes the pings out just like your post explained, but is not hard to start. That 4.2 has been a great motor for me.

[Guest nicemac]

Thanks for the reply, i dunno how to explain it.

I'll do my next couple of fill ups with regular and see what happens. Have been running 93 for a while now. It definitely takes the pings out just like your post explained, but is not hard to start. That 4.2 has been a great motor for me.

How many miles on the engine?

If the combustion chambers are heavily carboned up (or you have some other problem) you could have serious pre-detonation that the 93 is masking. Detonation robs power and consequently consumes more fuel.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Mythbusters says Acetone does NOT increase mileage. LIke all additives I have ever seen, mileage gets worse.

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That could very well be the case concerning acetone. I used regular non-ethanol gas

and 2 oz's acetone(from a hardware store). Like I said before, I noticed a slight increase

which could have been due to other variables, also. My Ford mechanic said it wouldn't hurt

and may even help mileage and power. I doubt it would help at all if used with the ethanol

gasoline.

Now as far as high test goes, BMW recommends premium non-ethanol gas, period. I didn't

really believe my wife when she said she thought it made a big difference. I figured it might

be a little better and continued using the stuff at the Kroger pumps. I was wrong about

that. There is a noticeable difference between the two types of gas and I have started

using the non ethanol stuff regularly.

Edited December 15, 2011 by 6.8 AR

[Mike.357]

How many miles on the engine?

If the combustion chambers are heavily carboned up (or you have some other problem) you could have serious pre-detonation that the 93 is masking. Detonation robs power and consequently consumes more fuel.

Almost 200K

Any cure for carbon build up?

[Guest nicemac]

That could very well be the case concerning acetone. I used regular non-ethanol gas

and 2 oz's acetone(from a hardware store). Like I said before, I noticed a slight increase

which could have been due to other variables, also. My Ford mechanic said it wouldn't hurt

and may even help mileage and power. I doubt it would help at all if used with the ethanol

gasoline.

Now as far as high test goes, BMW recommends premium non-ethanol gas, period. I didn't

really believe my wife when she said she thought it made a big difference. I figured it might

be a little better and continued using the stuff at the Kroger pumps. I was wrong about

that. There is a noticeable difference between the two types of gas and I have started

using the non ethanol stuff regularly.

There is plenty not to like about ethanol. It deteriorates rubber (it really swells the pump diaphragms in two stroke power equipment, causing all kinds of issues). It causes aluminum to oxidize. It collects moisture. It robs power and economy. I just had a recall on a Stihl trimmer to replace the gas cap. Seems "fuel additives" cause the plastic to swell, making the cap stick on the tank.

The whole gubament subsidy thing makes it even more un-attractive. What has happened to food prices as a side effect makes it even worse. Oh, and politicians have to pander in Iowa to get elected, so guess what is safe as can be politically?

But back to the cars… There is only about a 3% difference in BTUs between a gallon of regular gas and a gallon of gas with 10% ethanol. With the onboard system compensating for the difference, I imagine you would have to put the engine on a dyno and make very precise measurements to see a difference. We have two nearby stations that sell ethanol-free gas. I have run it and could find no discernable difference in performance and the mileage difference was not measurable.

I still use it in my outdoor power equipment. I especially WOULD NOT use ethanol gas in anything with a two-stroke engine.

YMMV (literally)

[Guest nicemac]

Almost 200K

Any cure for carbon build up?

Cure? Engine overhaul/ Valve stem seals/ rings, etc…

Remove it? The right way to fix it is of course, to take the heads off and do it that way.

Seafoam-type products reportedly work (but I have no experience with them to prove it).

I have personally used water.

I have run engines at elevated RPM (2,000-3,000) and put some water through the intake. The engine will buck and snort but the resulting water/ steam in the combustion chamber will clean carbon buildup. You can hear chunks bouncing through the exhaust. Warning: too much water and you could hydraulic lock the engine, possibly destroying it. Be careful. A little goes a long way and does a good job.

This guy did to on a generator and took before and after pics…

http://www.files.thinksitout.com/Alt_Fuel_Testers/AFT test results - using water to clean carbon out of engine.pdf

It works, but the underlying issue will cause it to happen again, eventually.

What happens with carbon in the combustion chamber is that it gets hot. Really hot. So hot that it causes the fuel/ air mixture to ignite too early in the cycle (pre-ignition). The mixture actually fires off before the piston is at top dead center (TDC) and works against the piston's upward travel. This robs power so you have to put more foot on the pedal to maintain the speed you desire. Fuel economy drops with the heavier foot. NOTE: A normally firing engine sparks before TDC. This allows the flame to build and peak near TDC which optimizes power. Don't be confused–I am talking about pre-ignition causing the mixture to fire WAY too early, not simply before TDC, which is normal and desirable.

Because the carbon buildup is likely uneven, you have cylinders working against each other, compounding the problem.

In your case, the 93 octane fuel (which resists ignition more than 87) reduces this effect. Because it is harder to ignite, the hotspots in the cylinder don't cause ignition before the spark plug fires at its proper time. You get better mileage because the engine is firing as designed.

Clean the combustion chambers and you will be able to revert back to 87 octane.

[Mike.357]

Thanks Mac. I don't see a rebuild in my future, lol and i am not personally doing the water thing. Might be worth it to risk seafoam.

[vaiger]

Ditto on ethanol being evil. I used ethanol gas in all of my dirt bikes this last year and I had five bikes that had trouble becuase the petcock seals were destroyed by the ethanol. Where are you guys finding non-ethanol gas? All of the major brands around me seem to have ethanol in them.

[Guest db99wj]

I've given up on my gas blower and gas weedeater, those things were finicky with regular old gas and they went to crap with ethanol. I bought electric weedeater and blower this year. My lawnmower gets Stabil put in it and run completely out of gas at the end of the season if possible. If not, a little more Stabil to hold it over, and more at the new season.

[Mike.357]

I use stabil in my fuel cans whenever i fill them. No problems in gas tools Tractor or quads since using it.

[kieefer]

Ditto on ethanol being evil. I used ethanol gas in all of my dirt bikes this last year and I had five bikes that had trouble becuase the petcock seals were destroyed by the ethanol. Where are you guys finding non-ethanol gas? All of the major brands around me seem to have ethanol in them.

Non-ethanol premium is available at I40E and Old Hickory Blvd.

If you mention a closer location than Mid-TN maybe someone can give you a tip.

Just found this link that may be about as lame as my last link, it doesn't even have the one I mentioned above. http://www.buyrealgas.com/Tennessee.html

Edited December 15, 2011 by kieefer

[10-Ring]

Water does indeed work for removing carbon buildup, as does Seafoam. If you are nervous about pouring water into your intake (which is perfectly fine by the way, but don't pour in too much) use transmission fluid. Really anything that will steam up will cause the carbon deposits to break loose. I suck about 8 oz of Seafoam in through my intake vacuum line in my truck every 10,000 miles or so. It's kept it running great.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

and they even have an app for that!