Don't think this is how the "stand your ground law" works

[RobertNashville]

Seems to me there are a lot of people (here on TGO, across the country and of course, Sharpton and Jackson) who seem to know a hell of a lot of "facts" about this. Yet, many of those "facts" tend to conflict with one another.

Funny how that works.

Edited March 24, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Yes it is.

The cover on Drudge is a picture of that buffoon Jesse Jackson. I won't bother with the caption.

[Tnscooter63]

"never waste a good crisis"

Along with Obama's Executive Order Authorizes Peacetime Martial Law

http://nation.foxnews.com/president-obama/2012/03/19/obamas-executive-order-authorizes-peacetime-martial-law

I have dont doubt there is an agenda and Obummer is'nt as stupid as some think. There have been numerous cases all over the U.S. of roaming inocent teens terrorizing and in some cases worse even here in memphis a few weeks ago on beale street and it will probably get worse before it gets better. I by no means am saying shot first and ask questions later but I am teling my daughter going to U of M to be a bit more aware as well as the rest of the family. They will try to make this a white verse black thing but I dont have to. Trust God but lock your doors, just my 2 cents.

[Guest RevScottie]

Here is a link to a TV reporters interview with an eye witness:

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I don't claim to know any facts of the case. As far as zimmerman is concerned, pursuing the kid, it do sound like proof positive of the concept, "If you don't start any sh there won't be no it". Who knows the details. Maybe it was a legal shoot after the ruckus started, but the ruckus didn't have to start. That's why was wondering if "reckless endangerment" could get closer to what went down.

[Tnscooter63]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-20120323,0,6326075.story

Since the fateful rainy night of Feb. 26 when Zimmerman, on patrol as a neighborhood watch volunteer, crossed paths in Sanford, Fla., with an unarmed Trayvon Martin, 17, the older man has been the subject of speculation. His friends and family have tried to defend him, have given a few interviews. But it has been the media -– principally, the Orlando Sentinel –- that has to fill in the outlines of the life of Zimmerman, variously described as white or a Latino.

Zimmerman's family has denied that race played a role. “The portrayal of George Zimmerman in the media, as well as the series of events that led to the tragic shooting, are false and extremely misleading,†wrote his father, Robert, a retired magistrate judge, in a letter published in the Orlando Sentinel. “Unfortunately, some individuals and organizations have used this tragedy to further their own causes and agendas.â€

“George is a Spanish-speaking minority with many black family members and friends,†the elder Zimmerman said. “He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever.â€

Zimmerman, the third of four children, grew up in Manassas, Va. where he lived in the 1980s and 1990s with his white father, Latina mother, siblings and a grandmother. The family was “very Catholic ... very religious,†neighbor Jim Rudzenski told the Washington Post. The children attended All Saints Catholic School through eighth grade before going to Osbourn High School. George was an altar boy and evening receptionist at the church.

*******************************************************************

Why shouldnt we protect ourselves as a community? There are communities of thugs (gangs) preying on us. Some of my nieghbors are worth stepping in for, and I am not sure I wouldnt have done the same thing if I saw someone lurking around the elderly couples house across my street. I could see myself atleast hollaring at them and telling them I have called the police, but I dang sure wouldnt have turned my back on them.

[Tnscooter63]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118785/Shawn-Tyson-said-murdered-James-Cooper-James-Kouzaris-Sarasota-Florida.html

I bet these two guys would have wished an overzealous Florida neighborhood watch guy was in the area?

[mikegideon]

http://www.latimes.c...0,6326075.story

Since the fateful rainy night of Feb. 26 when Zimmerman, on patrol as a neighborhood watch volunteer, crossed paths in Sanford, Fla., with an unarmed Trayvon Martin, 17, the older man has been the subject of speculation. His friends and family have tried to defend him, have given a few interviews. But it has been the media -– principally, the Orlando Sentinel –- that has to fill in the outlines of the life of Zimmerman, variously described as white or a Latino.

Zimmerman's family has denied that race played a role. “The portrayal of George Zimmerman in the media, as well as the series of events that led to the tragic shooting, are false and extremely misleading,†wrote his father, Robert, a retired magistrate judge, in a letter published in the Orlando Sentinel. “Unfortunately, some individuals and organizations have used this tragedy to further their own causes and agendas.â€

“George is a Spanish-speaking minority with many black family members and friends,†the elder Zimmerman said. “He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever.â€

Zimmerman, the third of four children, grew up in Manassas, Va. where he lived in the 1980s and 1990s with his white father, Latina mother, siblings and a grandmother. The family was “very Catholic ... very religious,†neighbor Jim Rudzenski told the Washington Post. The children attended All Saints Catholic School through eighth grade before going to Osbourn High School. George was an altar boy and evening receptionist at the church.

*******************************************************************

What? You trying to spoil the lynchin'?

[TMF]

Seems to me there are a lot of people (here on TGO, across the country and of course, Sharpton and Jackson) who seem to know a hell of a lot of "facts" about this. Yet, many of those "facts" tend to conflict with one another.

Funny how that works.

911 tapes. Two facts: Zimmerman's own words on record; there is a dead 17 year old. Everything else is up for question, but those two things together tell a story that needs to be looked at by a jury.

[TMF]

http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin?fb_comment_id=fbc_10151431978755585_31657432_10151438564830585#f2873e7de69328e

Its not always what it seams and especially what the media shows.

About as a reliable news source as MSNBC. I'm glad that a news outlet is presenting another side, but you can't counter or disprove press accounts with other press accounts. It all is suspect.

[East_TN_Patriot]

If the evidence shows that Zimmerman was indeed walking back to his vehicle and was attacked from behind, obviously that changes the scenario drastically. The law is clear in Florida that even if he had originally been an instigator, once he disengaged, the other party has no lawful justification to become an aggressor. That said, Zimmerman may still have a problem on his hands because it's going to take some pretty compelling evidence to use deadly force against an unarmed aggressor. Deadly force can only be used to meet deadly force and there are very few circumstances where someone using their fists would qualify as a threat of deadly force. As far as the "stand your ground" law, all it does is remove the duty to retreat in the face of a threat, it doesn't change the rules for self-defense as it relates to appropriate levels of force.

As a side note, I guess this incident is further proof of the lethality of the 9mm round and the reliability of Kel Tec firearms.

Edited March 24, 2012 by East_TN_Patriot

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I don't care about the race-baiting bs one way or t'other. Except that it is a shame that it remains a factor. It gets into that "hate crime" bs. To a victim of crime or negligence, the harm is the same regardless of victim's race. Any punishment should be the same regardless of perp's race or motivation. The legal details of the situation ought to be the same even if zimmerman and martin happened to be of the same race.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

If the evidence shows that Zimmerman was indeed walking back to his vehicle and was attacked from behind, obviously that changes the scenario drastically. The law is clear in Florida that even if he had originally been an instigator, once he disengaged, the other party has no lawful justification to become an aggressor. That said, Zimmerman may still have a problem on his hands because it's going to take some pretty compelling evidence to use deadly force against an unarmed aggressor. Deadly force can only be used to meet deadly force and there are very few circumstances where someone using their fists would qualify as a threat of deadly force. As far as the "stand your ground" law, all it does is remove the duty to retreat in the face of a threat, it doesn't change the rules for self-defense as it relates to appropriate levels of force.

As a side note, I guess this incident is further proof of the lethality of the 9mm round and the reliability of Kel Tec firearms.

And if the evidence shows Zimmerman was defending himself, which it originally did, according to the

authorities and witness testimony, there are at least six pages of this thread jumping to conclusions

drawn from the media crap coverage. I really get disgusted when things get blown out of proportion

based on bad actors getting in the way of an investigation. It had to become racially motivated, after

the fact.

Also, I stand by my assertion Obama should have never made a statement because this is a problem

in Florida that Florida has to deal with, since he's apparently so wreckless to allow his daughters to

go to Mexico for Spring break. All of it just tells me there will be a lynching at the end of the day.

I'm still wondering about Jesse's angle. Who is he trying to exstort this time, since he could care less

about this? Is he broke? What the heck can Sharpton do, except inject racism.

The state of Florida should send a letter to the White House telling them this is a state matter and

will be dealt with by Florida's justice system. Go away. Jackson and Sharpton should be arrested

for interfering with an investigation if, at all possible. They are the domestic terrorists.

"Judge man by the content of his character, not by the color of his skin." Martin L. King Jr.

I would be willing to bet that any witness coming forward after the initial investigation is tainted

and his or her testimony is essentially worthless, but will be construed as fact.

Edited March 24, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[Links2k]

I don't care about the race-baiting bs one way or t'other. Except that it is a shame that it remains a factor. It gets into that "hate crime" bs. To a victim of crime or negligence, the harm is the same regardless of victim's race. Any punishment should be the same regardless of perp's race or motivation. The legal details of the situation ought to be the same even if zimmerman and martin happened to be of the same race.

Well said sir. Blaming the hoodie is the same as saying that you raped a woman because she was dressed sexy.

The racist on here need to understand that it's ok to not like minorities, but don't hide behind the shield of not liking them because of the way that they may speak or dress. If you are of that ilk you wouldn't like them if they all wore Brooks Bros. suits and spoke perfect english.

Edited March 24, 2012 by LINKS2K

[Links2k]

And if the evidence shows Zimmerman was defending himself, which it originally did, according to the

authorities and witness testimony, there are at least six pages of this thread jumping to conclusions

drawn from the media crap coverage. I really get disgusted when things get blown out of proportion

based on bad actors getting in the way of an investigation. It had to become racially motivated, after

the fact.

Also, I stand by my assertion Obama should have never made a statement because this is a problem

in Florida that Florida has to deal with, since he's apparently so wreckless to allow his daughters to

go to Mexico for Spring break. All of it just tells me there will be a lynching at the end of the day.

I'm still wondering about Jesse's angle. Who is he trying to exstort this time, since he could care less

about this? Is he broke? What the heck can Sharpton do, except inject racism.

The state of Florida should send a letter to the White House telling them this is a state matter and

will be dealt with by Florida's justice system. Go away. Jackson and Sharpton should be arrested

for interfering with an investigation if, at all possible. They are the domestic terrorists.

"Judge man by the content of his character, not by the color of his skin." Martin L. King Jr.

I would be willing to bet that any witness coming forward after the initial investigation is tainted

and his or her testimony is essentially worthless, but will be construed as fact.

If Dr. King were alive today he would have to amend his statement to say "Judge man by the content of his character, not by the color of his skin, speech or dress".

As far as Jackson and Sharpton, they should shut up unless they are going to hold a rally everytime a black kid kills another black kid.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Pretty good adaptation, LINKS2K, but I doubt there would be any like him nowadays, at least I don't

know of them. The ones that try to speak the common sense that all of us should live by are called

some pretty childish and sometimes vile things, regardless of race. I agree.

Besides, with the "Occupy" garbage and several other things going on at the same time, this makes for

sensation and diversion, along with someone's agenda.

Nothing good will come of this.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Before someone corrects me, "Judge man, not by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character".

Sorry for the misquote.

[QuietDan]

Deadly force can only be used to meet deadly force and there are very few circumstances where someone using their fists would qualify as a threat of deadly force.

I'm pretty sure this is not a true statement, and I imagine that LEOs that post here could back it up.

We're talking about a fit, football playing, 6 foot plus male reportedly sitting on the chest of a man who's down, pounding on his face. If it were me, I would be afraid of significant bodily harm and be in fear of my life and I would shoot.

I can imagine a hulking 6 foot plus boyfriend beating a 100 pound, five foot tall woman with his fists, and if I was on a Grand Jury I would no-bill the woman if she shot him.

I can imagine a 6 foot plus teenager beating a frail 70-year-old man with his fists; If I were an officer, I would not arrest the 70 year old if he shot his attacker.

Actually, I can think of quite a few scenarios in which using fists would be considered deadly force, or put someone in fear of significant bodily harm, which is the test in many jurisdictions.

[Guest profgunner]

Well, we still don't know all the facts and probably never will. My understanding is that deadly force can be used only if someone has the means and the intent to kill you or do you serious bodily harm. I am not a lawyer, so I'm not sure what qualifies as "serious bodily harm". Punching someone in the nose may or may not qualify, depending on the circumstances. As always, the lawyers will build their respective cases and this thing will end up before a jury.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Got to agree with that, Lester.

I was asked by this nitwit fellow worker if he got mad at me in a scenario like cutting him off at an

intersection and he got mad, cornered me somewhere down the road and made the attempt to

"whip my ass", my response was "I would probably shoot you".

The nitwit weighs 300 lbs and is 30 years my junior, plus the "whip my ass" scenario is likely with

the maturity level of the kid. If approached like that, my options would certainly be limited. I see

what ET meant, perhaps in a different context.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Well, we still don't know all the facts and probably never will. My understanding is that deadly force can be used only if someone has the means and the intent to kill you or do you serious bodily harm. I am not a lawyer, so I'm not sure what qualifies as "serious bodily harm". Punching someone in the nose may or may not qualify, depending on the circumstances. As always, the lawyers will build their respective cases and this thing will end up before a jury.

I agree. Determining intent, whether one is trying to bloody your nose as opposed to killing you might

be quite difficult, though. I don't know how to determine it and I'm sure the situation is a bit different

each time. Fearing for your life is the key.

[Guest profgunner]

Here is a case where the use of force would surely have been justified. But, if this fellow had been armed and had shot the assailants BEFORE they beat him, he may have ended up in a situation similar to Zimmerman. Imagine what the media outcry would have been like if he had shot the adult and a couple of the juveniles. With no witness, other than the criminals involved, would he have been able to prove intent? Interesting to think about, no? http://www.youtube.c...&v=VmjUDPoCs7Y#!

Edited March 24, 2012 by profgunner

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That kid didn't have a chance, either. Things are going to get uglier before they better.

[SHbicycle]

One of the 911 calls you can hear Zimmerman screaming for 41 sec. and that is after the woman heard him screaming got a phone and called 911. Long time to have someone beat on you. How long would you wait before you shot?

[SonnyCrockett]

the facts are NOT presented yet...The more I read about the story of the kid and his death the more I

dont like the kid.....He is NOT the goody 2 shoes everyone thinks he is and while death by gun not deserved buy

a jerk like Zimmerman....The news is not factual - I await the full reports down the road

Notice the news did not put up this pic......ill wait for the lawyers to make both guys out to be ####

Edited March 25, 2012 by SonnyCrockett