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Adding a vertical foregrip to an AR "pistol"


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[quote name="Dustbuster" post="857651" time="1355115167"]The russian dude is the kid on "fps russia" on you tube. always doing "something" w various weapons,pretty funny sometimes..[/quote] And pretty knowledgable about his weapons as well. He gets access to some cool stuff, saw him fire two AA12s, that would be cool.
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  • 3 months later...
Guest 6.8 AR

Technicalities are exactly what lawyers use to back up their clients and make precedence in otherwise

"black letter law" to defend them. The ATF used the Thompson model, which is still in manufacture as a legal

firearm. It's kinda hard to take that precedence back. The 94 AWB was a cluster that allowed the creation of

this class(AR-pistol). They will be perpetually trying out how to make them banned or NFA items, but I think

they stepped in their own pile and can't figure how to clean it off their shoes, so they actually defined something

halfway correctly, for once.

 

It does clear up one thing for me. My 6.8 pistol is, instead, a firearm and I can put a vertical foregrip if I choose.

I learned something. :D

 

This whole exercise in futility is one more reason the ATF doesn't have much of a reason to exist. Just goes to

show how dumb the gun laws can be. And I thought the 2nd Amendment meant something...

Edited by 6.8 AR
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Why would anyone want to make a 26" pistol anyway?

 

Because, in the case of an AR pistol:

 

- It has most of the functionality of a rifle in much more compact package

- most of the accuracy of a SBR, without the $200 tax stamp

- Can be carried loaded, with one in chamber, on person or in vehicle, unlike a rifle

- Lots of firepower -- not many handguns have 30+1 capacity, and a rifle round to boot

- a 10.5" barrel, which is usually needed to get to the 26", still provides enough velocity to get the job done with various calibers, where a shorter barrel becomes questionable in that regard

- can swap out with other uppers, as situation calls for.

- the muzzle blast is most impressive, even though seldom fatal to perps

 

Besides, a techincality isnt worth 10+ years in jail.

 

I'm sure old guard BATF agents giggle at how cowed many in the firearms community remain.

 

t does clear up one thing for me. My 6.8 pistol is, instead, a firearm and I can put a vertical foregrip if I choose.

I learned something. :D

 

Mark, make sure it's a legal 26". Any muzzle device must be permanently attached to count.

 

Mine, that you've seen,

 

AR-pistol.jpg

 

is 26 1/4" counting flash hider, but it's not pinned/welded/soldered/whatever, so it's not legit for a VFG. Which is okay, 'cause I don't really care for them much.

 

- OS

Edited by Oh Shoot
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I will clear up the pistol->firearm->pistol gray area today. Need to check on something anyways.

Dolomite

 

Due to thread revival,  just noticed was left hanging.

 

When you add a VFG it becomes a "firearm", when you take it off it's a "handgun" again. There has been no ruling about it needing to "begin life" as a "firearm" first, or having to "stay a firearm" once you're added it since it was last discussed here.

 

- OS

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Not quite OS.
No stock + >26" OAL = "firearm". That is why you can add the vfg.
Handgun+ VFG = AOW /NFA.

 

Nope. It's a "handgun" regardless of overall length; there is no federal barrel length or overall length in definition for handgun or pistol. Just that if 26" or more, can add a VFG so it then becomes a "firearm".

 

Read the ATF letter to Franklin Armory:

 

"The addition of a vertical forward grip would result in this firearm no longer qualifying as a "handgun" or "pistol".

 

It is only the VFG that changes its status from "handgun" to "firearm". And without the VFG, it's a "handgun" again.

 

Had Franklin configured the weapon exactly the same but without the VFG, it would just be another 26" or greater handgun/pistol.

 

- OS

Edited by Oh Shoot
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Guest 6.8 AR

Hadn't thought about it like that. Hmm. Hmm. :D

Damn silly rules they come up with. I'm going to put my tinfoil hat and think about that one.

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Hadn't thought about it like that. Hmm. Hmm. :D

Damn silly rules they come up with. I'm going to put my tinfoil hat and think about that one.

 

All "official interpretations" of the actual law, which is not specific in many cases.

 

The whole pistol/rifle/pistol thing only came about because SCOTUS "explained" their own frigging rules to them way back in '92. But it wasn't until other firearm manufacturers put pressure on them for configs they wanted to make that BATF finally put out their ruling for the general public in July of '11. Just scuzzy behavior, really.

 

The US Justice Dept. does bait and switch crap that even corrupt small burgs in the South wouldn't try. I mean, Eric Holder is just the epitome of partisan selective enforcement. Of course, his boss, that esteemed Constitutional scholar Hussein is even worse.

 

- OS

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Yeh, that's what we are continually up against: the idiots that love to change their minds when it suits them.

 

That's why the pistol/rifle/pistol and "constructive possession"  thangs are pretty much rock solid, being handed down by the Supremes, and not some regional director or something.

 

- OS

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Because, in the case of an AR pistol:

- It has most of the functionality of a rifle in much more compact package
- most of the accuracy of a SBR, without the $200 tax stamp
- Can be carried loaded, with one in chamber, on person or in vehicle, unlike a rifle
- Lots of firepower -- not many handguns have 30+1 capacity, and a rifle round to boot
- a 10.5" barrel, which is usually needed to get to the 26", still provides enough velocity to get the job done with various calibers, where a shorter barrel becomes questionable in that regard
- can swap out with other uppers, as situation calls for.
- the muzzle blast is most impressive, even though seldom fatal to perps


I'm sure old guard BATF agents giggle at how cowed many in the firearms community remain.


Mark, make sure it's a legal 26". Any muzzle device must be permanently attached to count.

Mine, that you've seen,

AR-pistol.jpg

is 26 1/4" counting flash hider, but it's not pinned/welded/soldered/whatever, so it's not legit for a VFG. Which is okay, 'cause I don't really care for them much.

- OS


I'm not an expert in the law but you appear to have a standard buffer tube that has the ability to affix the adjustable stock to. I've read the ATF can still tag you for an SBR. You might want to get a standard pistol tube that does not have the ability to receive the stock.
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Because, in the case of an AR pistol:


- It has most of the functionality of a rifle in much more compact package

- most of the accuracy of a SBR, without the $200 tax stamp

- Can be carried loaded, with one in chamber, on person or in vehicle, unlike a rifle

- Lots of firepower -- not many handguns have 30+1 capacity, and a rifle round to boot

- a 10.5" barrel, which is usually needed to get to the 26", still provides enough velocity to get the job done with various calibers, where a shorter barrel becomes questionable in that regard

- can swap out with other uppers, as situation calls for.

- the muzzle blast is most impressive, even though seldom fatal to perps



I'm sure old guard BATF agents giggle at how cowed many in the firearms community remain.



Mark, make sure it's a legal 26". Any muzzle device must be permanently attached to count.


Mine, that you've seen,




is 26 1/4" counting flash hider, but it's not pinned/welded/soldered/whatever, so it's not legit for a VFG. Which is okay, 'cause I don't really care for them much.


- OS


I'm not an expert in the law but you appear to have a standard buffer tube that has the ability to affix the adjustable stock to. I've read the ATF can still tag you for an SBR. You might want to get a standard pistol tube that does not have the ability to receive the stock.



As long as you don't have an EXTRA stock to readily affix, then the 6 position buffer is perfectly fine.
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I'm not an expert in the law but you appear to have a standard buffer tube that has the ability to affix the adjustable stock to. I've read the ATF can still tag you for an SBR. You might want to get a standard pistol tube that does not have the ability to receive the stock.

He is perfectly legal according to the ATF.

 

He can get in trouble if he has a stock and only the weapon pictured in the same bag or in close proximity.

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Guest 6.8 AR

He is perfectly legal according to the ATF.

 

He can get in trouble if he has a stock and only the weapon pictured in the same bag or in close proximity.

Right, while being totally ridiculous. :D

 

Gordon, you know I believe you when you said you would clear this up, in the beginning, but this is the ATF.

Everything is a cloud, and always seems to rain on clear days.

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There are recent letters stating the same thing.

 

Go here:

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=atf+pistol+buffer+tube&oq=atf+pistol+buffer+tube&gs_l=hp.3...10023.11838.1.11959.11.11.0.0.0.0.208.1706.1j9j1.11.0...0.0...1c.1.7.psy-ab._5nz4q59iDU&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44442042,d.eWU&fp=5ba43b862bdac08d&biw=1280&bih=649

The 4th down is a PDF letter stating it. I will not link the PDF directly and you will understand why when you see it.

 

It is from 2011. It states any receiver extension does not constitute a shoulder stock. Accordingly any buffer tube can be used on a AR-15 pistol. They caution that possessing a stock that could be readily installed on the pistol could constitute a SBR.

 

Dolomite

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Guest 6.8 AR

And I recognize that they come up with rulings because the laws are not specific enough, due to lazy and

some devious lawmakers doing a bad job.

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I'm not an expert in the law but you appear to have a standard buffer tube that has the ability to affix the adjustable stock to. I've read the ATF can still tag you for an SBR. You might want to get a standard pistol tube that does not have the ability to receive the stock.

 
Folks will be saying this forever I guess, it's become internet lore, even though it hasn't been relevant since the Thompson case in SCOTUS in 1992.
 
See response below, Dolomite's link in post 42, and also if you haven't, read the BATF public ruling, which clarifies both pistol to rife to pistol, and "constructive possession".
 
http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
 
Also, having a pistol-type receiver extension is not necessarily a free pass either, if you also had a stock with you and no other clear legal use for it. The decision goes on to include "attachable" in the test, but "attachable" is not defined. Taping it on or whatever could be "attachable" too, if they had a hard on for ya, who knows.
 

As long as you don't have an EXTRA stock to readily affix, then the 6 position buffer is perfectly fine.

 
"Extra" isn't  really the test, which is whether anything you have has a "useful purpose" other than making a NFA weapon. Multiples of parts are simply spare parts, if one has a legal useful purpose, then they all do.
 
However, I agree you'd be foolish to bait the bear to have an "extra spare-part stock" with you out and about with both a AR rifle and pistol, but ultimately the test is the same one that would be applied to items in your home, where of course you might have any number of extra stocks, just like firing pins, bolts, whatever.

 

He is perfectly legal according to the ATF.

He can get in trouble if he has a stock and only the weapon pictured in the same bag or in close proximity.

 

Yep, but I'd err on the side of caution as to what "close proximity" is. Certainly, out and about, I'd say having such a "collection of parts" would include your car too. At home, to cover all bases, I'd consider my whole home to be "close enough proximity".

Put it this way: if all I owned was an AR pistol, regardless of receiver extension type, I wouldn't have an AR stock, period, anywhere on my property.

- OS
 

Edited by Oh Shoot
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There are recent letters stating the same thing.

 

Go here:

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=atf+pistol+buffer+tube&oq=atf+pistol+buffer+tube&gs_l=hp.3...10023.11838.1.11959.11.11.0.0.0.0.208.1706.1j9j1.11.0...0.0...1c.1.7.psy-ab._5nz4q59iDU&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44442042,d.eWU&fp=5ba43b862bdac08d&biw=1280&bih=649

The 4th down is a PDF letter stating it. I will not link the PDF directly and you will understand why when you see it.

It is from 2011. It states any receiver extension does not constitute a shoulder stock. Accordingly any buffer tube can be used on a AR-15 pistol. They caution that possessing a stock that could be readily installed on the pistol could constitute a SBR.

 

Dolomite

 

And they're right, if the stock has no other useful purpose than making a NFA firearm.

 

The SCOTUS ruling, by the way, nor the ATF public ruling, mentions "readily" either, which is why I say that a pistol-type extension tube is not necessarily a perfect out, if you had a stock with you with no other demonstrable legal use. And at home, if you had a stock and also had a spare carbine extension in your parts, but no rifle config, seems could easily be trouble.

 

All of those finer points of course reasonably would never likely come into play unless you were already on their hit list for some other reason.

 

But even though I believe in availing oneself of all legal actions in life, I still would use an abundance of caution with firearms stuff especially, as the worst case scenario stakes could be pretty damn high just for having a $20 part or two laying around that either individually or in combination would constitute making an illegal firearm.

 

- OS

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I am want to convert a Sig 5.56 Pistol to a SBR, what paper work do I need to do??

Fill out a Form 1. Have sheriff sign off on it. Make a copy. Attach passport photos to both. Complete 2 ATF fingerprint cards. Complete the certification form. Put the two Form 1's, Certification form, fingerprint cards and a $200 check in the mail to the ATF. Wait 6-9 months then once you have the form in hand attach your stock.

 

It is a very easy, but slow, process.

 

DO NOT ATTACH THE STOCK BEFORE YOU HAVE THE FORM IN HAND!

 

Dolomite

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You've said it twice and are wrong twice.

The letter plainly states that a vertical forearm grip on a pistol of 26" or more changes it from a pistol to a firearm, and is NOT subject to NFA/AOW classification as long as it is not concealed on the person.

There are sub 18" barreled pistol grip shotguns that also fit this classification as "firearm" from the git go.

RG500.11a1.jpg

The trick is that neither must have started life as a rifle or shotgun. In the same way, it's now clear that you can go back and forth from pistol to rifle to pistol, but only if it began life as a pistol. But as Dolomite suggests, it's still gray whether you can go back and forth between a pistol and a "firearm".

- OS

I don't doubt you for a second... I do want to know how that is not a Short Barrel Shotgun/NFA? I am confused there. 

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