Bummed about loss in accuracy. Ammo differences?

[Guest t.bird]

So I recently started attempting to get into longer-range shooting.  I built a free-floated 20" AR with a cheaper Leapers 4-16x40 scope, to learn with until hobby/distance warrants nicer glass (scope still gets pretty decent reviews). 

 

I have shot the rifle on three occasions.  On my last range trip I finished the day shooting a group of 5 shots at about 1 MOA @ 100 yards, and around 2 MOA at 200 yards.  Between those range trips I have done a TON of reading, youtube watching, and dryfire.  I felt a little more prepared today to hopefully get closer to 1 MOA @ 200 yards (resting point of aim, bipod loading, rear sand-bag control, etc..).  My first group today @ 100 yards was okay, a little over 1 MOA, but everything else was complete crap.  2-3 MOA @ 100 yards, I didn't bother going out further.  I couldn't repeat anything or predict in the slightest where the hit would land.  I was at a loss at the range and have been debating in my mind since wondering what the deal is.

 

I feel that I should be better skilled than that...that got me thinking about equipment (the usual newer shooter, "it's not me, it's that gun!" crap :shake: )  I thought maybe the cheap scope is crapping out, but I'm not so sure.  I haven't paid much attention to ammo, I just didn't really think there would be much difference shooting for 1 MOA @ 100.  But I have realized I used a different kind of ammo this time, on top of that I'm pretty sure the last trip was 55 grain .223 (can't remember brand), and this was ZQI 62 grain 5.56...I guess my question is...I know I might see a zero change between ammo, but does the accuracy drop make sense?  Perhaps my 1/9 twist barrel didn't like the the 62 grain bullets.

 

I think for my next trip I'm going to try and order some match ammo, perhaps some 75 grain .223...see how it does and try to stick to a particular ammo.  A friend also offered to lend me his Chandler m40 to make sure it's equipment related over skill.

Edited June 13, 2014 by t.bird

[mike243]

I have never owned a rifle that shot all ammo the same,buy several weights & different brands & you will find what it likes then work on the rifle.ammo testing can be as expensive or as cheap as you want it to be.  

[Troutburger]

Also, check the screws on your scope rings. They can get loose

[DaveTN]

So you have a homemade AR rifle, a hundred dollar scope, you are a new shooter, and you think it might be bad ammo because you can’t repeat a 1” group at 100 yards or a 2” group at 200?

[Dolomite_supafly]

  On my last range trip I finished the day shooting a group of 5 shots at about 1 MOA @ 100 yards, and around 2 MOA at 200 yards. 

So you were shooting ~1" at 100 yards and ~4" at 200 yards? MOA is an angle of measurement and 1 MOA gets bigger the father you go out.. 1 MOA at 200 yards is going to be ~2". 2 MOA at 200 yards is going to be ~4".

 

Ammo can make a huge difference in accuracy. It might be your first bit of ammo is ammo your rifle liked and the second one your rifle hated. I have yet to find a gun that will shoot all ammo with the same level of accuracy, you MUST find an ammo that your rifle likes. Your twist has zero to do with whether it can shoot 62 grain bullets well, it is the shooter or ammo or barrel but definitely not the twist.

 

If you were shooting off a bipod, quit. Bipods can cause all kinds of weird things to happen especially if you are shooting off a hard surface. Get a backpack, pillow or a shooting bag to shoot off of.

 

Here is the deal with cheap scopes. They generally work fine as long as you do not do a lot of dialing on them. That is if you zero and leave them they generally do pretty well but when you start making adjustments things go to hell pretty quickly. I have the same exact scope and it rarely returns to zero, yes it gets close but it is still off. Then after a few shots it settles back down where it should be. So if you are turning the knobs at all while trying to shoot groups you are chasing your tail. There are tons of decent scopes out there for not a lot of money.

 

And finally, unless you have a decent trigger it is going to limit you as well. If there is a single thing I can say affects a guns accuracy it is the quality of the trigger. If you are still running a milspec trigger that can cause accuracy issues. It doesn't take a lot of money to get a better trigger either. You can find 2 stage triggers on the used market for $75 or new for a little over $100.

[peejman]

The different ammo certainly could make a difference.  Even different lots of the same ammo could be different.  The further out you go, differences in velocity and ballistic coefficient increase.  A chronometer isn't a bad idea either to ensure you're seeing consistent velocity. 

[RED333]

All of the above and I will add,

With match ammo, all projectiles are the same, all powder is the same, all cases are the same.

You will pay a pretty price for match ammo.

Reload, easier to change powder by 1/10th of a gran at a time.

Last, shoot 100 rounds a day. A few trips to the range are not gona get it.

[div]

+1 on the ammo. I have a 20" bull barrel franken-AR that I built. First time out I got 5" groups at 100yards with Walmart federal 100pack 55g ammo. Was pretty unhappy. Set up a ladder of handloads with 65g gamekings and varget and my best group was 1". Swapped to w748 and am getting 3/4". All with milspec trigger and a leadsled. I'm now hunting for good deals on a better trigger and bags. Ammo can make a HUGE difference. Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Jonnin]

ammo you make yourself is the only way to go for serious shooting.   Even if you don't have the $$ for top dollar equipment and don't have the time or patience to make your ammo perfect, it will still be better than most inexpensive store bought ammo.  Why?  Because you can get your powder charges *close enough* to identical if not exactly even with cheap gear.  You can learn to seat/crimp/trim so its all the same length and depth.  You can learn the trick of seating the bullet to fit YOUR rifle (this is not hard at all).  You can weigh your projectiles and use "nearly the same" weight every shot.   You can make small changes to the recipe until it performs well in YOUR gun.   And at that point it will be less expensive and better quality than anything you can buy for less than a buck a shot. 

 

The ammo may or may not be your problem.  But rolling your own will eliminate that variable.  

 

All in all, My advice would echo much of the above and add to it with:  just go shoot.  Don't mess with anything right now, just shoot.  Don't even look at the targets and score them.   Just line it up, hold it steady, and fire your best shot over and over.   Score at the end, maybe, but don't even look until you are done for the day.  See what happens over a couple of months.    Keeping score as you go adds stress and distracts you.  Worrying that the scope is misaligned is of no value... the group will still go in the same hole, just not in the center,  and that is the key (the scope can be fixed later).  

 

If you still *think* the gun, ammo, or something is wrong after a month or so,  lock the gun into a rest and shoot it with the same ammo and range.  If it makes a big group, you have your answer.

[Guest t.bird]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

 

Also, check the screws on your scope rings. They can get loose

 

All locked up and tight, I made sure of that.

 

So you have a homemade AR rifle, a hundred dollar scope, you are a new shooter, and you think it might be bad ammo because you can’t repeat a 1” group at 100 yards or a 2” group at 200?

 

lol, yeah...that's pretty much the gist of it.  I'm not really a new shooter, just new to scopes and 100+ yard shooting.  But it hurts to be shooting ~1 MOA @ 100 every time I have shot that far (twice with this rifle, twice friend's rifles), then all of a sudden be seeing 2-3 MOA.

 

So you were shooting ~1" at 100 yards and ~4" at 200 yards? MOA is an angle of measurement and 1 MOA gets bigger the father you go out.. 1 MOA at 200 yards is going to be ~2". 2 MOA at 200 yards is going to be ~4".

 

Ammo can make a huge difference in accuracy. It might be your first bit of ammo is ammo your rifle liked and the second one your rifle hated. I have yet to find a gun that will shoot all ammo with the same level of accuracy, you MUST find an ammo that your rifle likes. Your twist has zero to do with whether it can shoot 62 grain bullets well, it is the shooter or ammo or barrel but definitely not the twist.

 

If you were shooting off a bipod, quit. Bipods can cause all kinds of weird things to happen especially if you are shooting off a hard surface. Get a backpack, pillow or a shooting bag to shoot off of.

 

Here is the deal with cheap scopes. They generally work fine as long as you do not do a lot of dialing on them. That is if you zero and leave them they generally do pretty well but when you start making adjustments things go to hell pretty quickly. I have the same exact scope and it rarely returns to zero, yes it gets close but it is still off. Then after a few shots it settles back down where it should be. So if you are turning the knobs at all while trying to shoot groups you are chasing your tail. There are tons of decent scopes out there for not a lot of money.

 

And finally, unless you have a decent trigger it is going to limit you as well. If there is a single thing I can say affects a guns accuracy it is the quality of the trigger. If you are still running a milspec trigger that can cause accuracy issues. It doesn't take a lot of money to get a better trigger either. You can find 2 stage triggers on the used market for $75 or new for a little over $100.

 

Correct on the MOA, 4" at 200 yards.  I wasn't really focusing when I was shooting at 200 yards last time, it was at the end of the day and I just wanted to try it before I left.

 

I was under the impression that twist did affect ballistics along with bullet weight, but maybe I was reading too much into it and twist can only be used as a guideline for how heavy of a bullet you would want to use?

 

I was indeed using a bipod, I will consider other options in the future.

 

I was not messing with the dials yesterday, I didn't really care that I was hitting the bullseye, just wanted tighter groups.  So you found that with your scope you actually had to fire a couple of rounds for it to return to your zero after dialing back to zero?

 

My trigger isn't great, but it's okay.  Stock PSA trigger that I polished, added lighter Wolff springs and an adjustable grip screw to dial out some creep.  I've done some pistol and rimfire rifle competing...so I've spent some time working on trigger control but a 2 stage trigger is definitely in my future.

 

All of the above and I will add,

With match ammo, all projectiles are the same, all powder is the same, all cases are the same.

You will pay a pretty price for match ammo.

Reload, easier to change powder by 1/10th of a gran at a time.

Last, shoot 100 rounds a day. A few trips to the range are not gona get it.

 

I would love to reload down the road.  I've been shooting 100-150 rounds per range-trip through this gun.

 

+1 on the ammo. I have a 20" bull barrel franken-AR that I built. First time out I got 5" groups at 100yards with Walmart federal 100pack 55g ammo. Was pretty unhappy. Set up a ladder of handloads with 65g gamekings and varget and my best group was 1". Swapped to w748 and am getting 3/4". All with milspec trigger and a leadsled. I'm now hunting for good deals on a better trigger and bags. Ammo can make a HUGE difference. Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

That makes me feel a little better, a little less crazy.  I guess time will tell what or who the issue is though.

 

ammo you make yourself is the only way to go for serious shooting.   Even if you don't have the $$ for top dollar equipment and don't have the time or patience to make your ammo perfect, it will still be better than most inexpensive store bought ammo.  Why?  Because you can get your powder charges *close enough* to identical if not exactly even with cheap gear.  You can learn to seat/crimp/trim so its all the same length and depth.  You can learn the trick of seating the bullet to fit YOUR rifle (this is not hard at all).  You can weigh your projectiles and use "nearly the same" weight every shot.   You can make small changes to the recipe until it performs well in YOUR gun.   And at that point it will be less expensive and better quality than anything you can buy for less than a buck a shot. 

 

The ammo may or may not be your problem.  But rolling your own will eliminate that variable.  

 

All in all, My advice would echo much of the above and add to it with:  just go shoot.  Don't mess with anything right now, just shoot.  Don't even look at the targets and score them.   Just line it up, hold it steady, and fire your best shot over and over.   Score at the end, maybe, but don't even look until you are done for the day.  See what happens over a couple of months.    Keeping score as you go adds stress and distracts you.  Worrying that the scope is misaligned is of no value... the group will still go in the same hole, just not in the center,  and that is the key (the scope can be fixed later).  

 

If you still *think* the gun, ammo, or something is wrong after a month or so,  lock the gun into a rest and shoot it with the same ammo and range.  If it makes a big group, you have your answer.

 

I plan on reloading eventually...I need to start putting together a small single-stage setup.  I think for now I am going to order some more consistent ammo, leave the gun as-is and see if anything improves over a couple of range trips.