threeshot

The wounds to the foot were from a 12ga shotgun. The other picture of the shoe appears to have the diameter of a handgun caliber. See the thread link below. http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/newsworthy-reports/22108-firearm-safety.html

According to the talking heads, in the military, you address subordinates by title and you address superiors as Sir or Ma'am. YouTube - Barbara Boxer Shows Her Arogance,Call Me Senator Not Ma'am The reference to Condoleezza Rice from the above video is below: To see part of the video with Barbara Boxer & Condoleezza Rice is shown below. It cuts off at the end so I am not sure how much more there is to the exchange.

I will withhold my judgment until I see more of the hearing. If the General was being questioned by different Senator's and if the General was responding to the male Senator's by their title, however when it came to a female Senator he started calling her ma'am, then I can agree with Senator Boxer's needing to correct the General. I do not see all job titles as earned. In general, I believe that once you get into management titles or no longer grunt titles, it is political how you earned that title. Be it in the government, military or private sector.

My point is that the lawyers treat this as some sort of chess game of explaining and influencing the jury to find in their favor. Both sides will use any means (or more likely budget; i.e. what they will be paid) to win their case. So when you are the defendant, how much money do you have in reserve to fight the criminal & civil cases? I am sure it will be into the thousands of dollars. I am not sure how many thousands of dollars. Anyone know? Now having said all of that, I agree with you that people should use the caliber, bullets and modifications that provide them with more accuracy to prevent collateral damage and to eliminate the threat ASAP.

The type of bullet you use may not be illegal, however you need to consider how a jury will be influenced either negative or positive regarding the type of ammo that was used in the shooting. If you are using Teflon coated bullets, the DA in a criminal court or plaintiff that is suing you in civil court are going to tell the jury that you were looking for bloodlust by using these specialty ammo. Again, it is how the jury will perceive your intentions and lawyers telling the jury their version of events that may hurt your case. When a case goes to jury trial, you never know what the outcome will be until the jury provides their verdict.

Here is the link to gun issue at a school parking lot for self-defense. http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/tennessee-politics-legislation/21598-when-threaten-judge-says-least-point-your-gun.html

This is typical politician answer. Provide the answer to the question you wanted to be asked, not the question that was asked.

Thank you both for the summaries. Just a clarification to the following: You cannot have a round loaded in the chamber of the long gun. I mention this due to various people will have different ideas as to what is considered "loaded".

45% Yes 54% No 1932 votes

Or the NRA site for state laws. NRA-ILA ::

Franklin Alderman Dana McLendon said the Tennessean misquoted him. Tennessean quote shown below: Revised quote: tennessean.com | Nashville PluckPersona | The Tennessean

Gun debate passes to county, cities | tennessean.com | The Tennessean By Mitchell Kline • THE TENNESSEAN • June 19, 2009 FRANKLIN — State lawmakers have put local officials on the hot seat with the recent passage of a law allowing guns to be carried in public parks. The legislation, which was signed into law last week by the governor, immediately opens state-owned parks to people who have handgun carry permits. Municipalities have until Sept. 1 to opt out of the new provision and ban guns from their own parks. State officials had considered a bill that would have exempted locally governed parks from the new gun law, but went forward with language that includes counties and cities. The final bill passed by a vote of 54-41 in the House and 24-8 in the Senate, with one lawmaker choosing not to vote. "This thing turned 180 degrees," said County Commission Chairman Houston Naron Jr. "What I'm going to be doing now is reviewing it and getting with the appropriate people to see what direction we want to take. The biggest issue overall that makes this something we've got to give careful consideration to is this is involving children." There are more than 45 parks overseen by the county and city governments in Williamson County. These include places with athletic fields, walking trails, Civil War sites and open wooded or grassy areas. If local officials take no action, then handgun carry permit holders can pack heat while watching baseball games, hiking or strolling by playgrounds. Few are ready to weigh in Many city and county officials declined to give their opinion on the matter when contacted by The Tennessean this week. Some said it's too early to pick a side. Others, like County Commissioner Mary Mills, said they didn't have an opinion either way. But it's likely most local officials will have to make a decision one way or the other. "It's a hard question to answer," said Corey Napier, an alderman in Thompson's Station, which oversees one park. "I haven't polled anybody. Intuitively, when you think about bringing a gun to a place that's almost by definition geared toward children, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to condone it. But on the other hand, I know of a lot of law-abiding citizens who do have guns." County Commissioner Lewis Green said he understands why some of his colleagues want to keep their opinions on guns to themselves. Green was threatened with political retribution when he sponsored a resolution that would have prohibited guns in all county-owned buildings. Green said the whole thing started when county officials requested signs prohibiting weapons from libraries. He pulled the resolution off an agenda last September and said he'd never propose a gun ban again. "Before the ink was dry on that, my phone started ringing," Green said. "Most were congenial and explained their situation. I told them my intent was to pull the resolution. Some of the e-mails were like, 'You are threatening your position.' Some said, 'Hey, you will lose the next election.'" Green said that while he won't be the one to sponsor a resolution banning guns from county-owned parks he'd vote in favor of the ban. He said the county's elected officials should prepare to receive comments on the issue. "We're going to hear from the gun people," Green said. "I think it's another chink in the right to carry a gun type thing." There are more than 5,298 handgun carry permit holders in the county, according to the state's Department of Safety. Children's presence is concern County Mayor Rogers Anderson, who called himself a "Second Amendment man," said he's got questions about the new law. Anderson said it's unclear if local governments could apply a gun ban to a selected group of parks, but not all. He also asks whether a park near or on school grounds would fall under the law. "I think a lot of those issues are going to come out," Anderson said. "It needs to be discussed and it needs to be out there. It will be challenged." Anderson said he doesn't think children and weapons go together. Franklin officials plan on discussing the matter next month, according to Mayor John Schroer. There are 10 parks overseen by Franklin, including Jim Warren Park, Pinkerton Park and the soon to open Park at Harlinsdale Farm. The city bans firearms from all its parks and Schroer said that shouldn't change. "Personally, I think there's no place for guns in our city parks," Schroer said. "Our parks are mostly child-active parks. I just don't think guns need to be part of the scenario. You can't carry a gun into a school. I see the park issue as the same as schools." But Franklin Alderman Dana McLendon sees a difference in the uses of the city's parks. "I can understand not wanting to have handguns at ball fields where, in my view, the possibility of even justifying a handgun is relatively remote," he said. But McLendon said he supports allowing park visitors to carry guns at the passive parks, such as the 200-acre Park at Harlinsdale Farm or the Eastern Flank of the Battle of Franklin park, where there may be fewer people around and where there may be a greater possibility that someone "might lurk on the walking trails at Harlinsdale." Franklin Police Chief Jackie Moore and parks Director Lisa Clayton declined to talk about guns in parks. City Administrator Eric Stuckey said it's an issue "that concerns us." Brentwood City Manager Mike Walker expressed a similar sentiment, saying he's looking at all options. Mayor Betsy Crossley said she's thought about it "a lot of different ways." Crossley said the Second Amendment is "important, but is it appropriate for our parks?" Brentwood Commissioner Anne Dunn said it's an issue where many people will disagree with the "application of the law." Dunn said she believes people have the right to protect themselves and legally carry guns, but isn't sure guns should be carried in places where children might be playing. Brentwood Police Chief Ricky Watson said state lawmakers should have worded the bill differently so local governments wouldn't have to make the decision to opt out. He doesn't see it as a law enforcement issue, but said he doesn't believe guns are necessary in city parks. "I don't want to get into a big discussion on it," Watson said. Chief urges 'common sense' Spring Hill Police Chief John Smith said he plans to share his opinions on the new law at an upcoming city meeting. "The Tennessee Chiefs Association was opposed to this legislation just as we were opposed to guns in restaurants," Smith said. "I think common sense should prevail." Smith said he's a firm believer in the right for citizens to bear arms, but has to look at public safety. He said he's sure most people would not feel the need to bring a gun to a city park, but he worries about the possibility that some would. "Like anything else, there's the element of the unknown," he said. "Why provide an environment for a tragedy to happen when you don't have to?" Fairview Mayor Ken Brison said it may be a moot point in his city, which oversees just one park — the 722-acre Bowie Nature Park. "I believe that under the conservation easement we signed, Bowie Park don't allow guns, period," Brison said. "I know the deed had restrictions about having guns." Fairview Commissioner Toney Sutton, a correctional officer at the County Jail, said he sees no need for people to carry a gun into any public park where children may be present. "I am pro gun," Sutton said. "I believe everybody should own one to protect their family. But where's it going to stop?" Sutton said law enforcement officers are trained not to fire at "the bad guy" if there's even a chance a bullet could strike an innocent bystander. "Not many people have that kind of training," Sutton said. Additional Facts How they voted in Nashville How your state officials voted on the final version of the guns in parks bill. Sen. Jack Johnson (R-Franklin) — yes Rep. Glen Casada (R-Franklin) — yes Rep. Phillip Johnson (R-Pegram) — no Rep. Charles Sargent (R-Franklin) — no Source: www.capitol.tn.gov

Guns in bars to face local legal challenge | Nashville City Paper: Nashville's Online Source for Daily News Wednesday, June 17, 2009 at 11:00pm By Nate Rau So, do 37 other states have laws similar to the one Tennessee’s legislature passed this month allowing guns in establishments that serve alcohol? Well, that’s the statement the media and proponents of the guns-in-bars bill tossed around throughout the debate about the legislation’s merits. Everyone from the bill’s sponsor, state Sen. Doug Jackson, to conservative talk show hosts to the media spokesman for the National Rifle Association have said something to that effect. The numbers did change from time to time. The Associated Press reported when the bill passed that “37 other states have similar laws.†Bradley County Sheriff Tim Gobble told the Cleveland (Tenn.) Daily Banner, “There are 38 other states who already have similar laws like this in motion and it seems to be working for them.†And there’s Jackson himself, who told everyone from WKRN Channel 2 to Fox News, the number was actually 40 states. “I would just point out that 40 states allow citizens to carry guns where alcohol is served,†the senator said. Yet it turns out that no matter which of those numbers are used, they are wrong. Numbers worth exploring Based on extensive legal research conducted by Nashville attorney David Randolph Smith of the local firm Smith and Schmidt, the actual figure is nearly the inverse. There ARE 37 states according to Smith that have laws mandating the issuance of concealed weapons permits. But of those 37 states, 27 explicitly prohibit guns in places where alcohol is served. In fact, there are only 15 states in the country which have circumstances remotely similar to the one Tennessee will be in on July 14 when the law goes into effect. Those states issue concealed weapons permits, but do not explicitly ban guns in places serving alcohol. They also preempt local governments from regulating firearms. In effect, a person with a handgun in a bar in any of those 15 states is not committing a criminal act. But Tennessee’s new law goes one step further than that. It is the first state in the entire country to expressly allow handguns in places that serve alcohol. Smith believes Tennessee committed “legislative malpractice†when its General Assembly voted to override Gov. Phil Bredesen’s veto of the guns-in-bars bill, and he intends to do something about. He’s leading a coalition that’s formulating a potential legal challenge to guns-in-bars. “In effect, Tennessee by this new law has legislated a public nuisance and created an explicit right to bring handguns into bars,†Smith said. “This is unprecedented in U.S. law and runs afoul of the law and policy in the vast majority of states that do not permit concealed weapons in bars, or otherwise restrict, or prohibit loaded and concealed weapons in public places.†Dread helps line up plaintiffs Working with Smith on a potential legal challenge is Nashville attorney Adam Dread, a former Metro Council member and a handgun owner. It was Dread who introduced the notion that Metro could prohibit guns in Nashville bars by regulating beer permits. His idea eventually led to a bill sponsored by At-large Council members Megan Barry and Charlie Tygard. In the end, the concept fizzled out when Metro's legal department determined that state law preempted Metro’s ability to regulate firearms. Tygard has withdrawn the bill, but Dread has vowed to fight on. “We’re going to build a coalition of like-minded folks who want to do everything we can to keep Nashville safer,†Dread said. Dread said he would also be reaching out to prominent Nashville organizations, including the business community, the hospitality community and faith-based groups. The coalition could come in the form of a lawsuit challenging the state law as creating a public nuisance and putting those who work in bars and restaurants in a danger. Smith said his preference would be for Metro to take the lead and challenge the state law, but so far no momentum has built on that front. Metro Director of Law Sue Cain had no comment for this story. If Metro decides to stay out of the fight, then Smith and Dread said they would pursue a legal challenge on another front. Already more than one Nashville server has agreed to file a complaint claiming the law creates an unsafe work environment. Fearing potential backlash, the server declined to comment for this story. Local restaurateur Randy Rayburn said he’s on board to be included in a legal challenge, too, and explained his stance. “I think that the vocal minority of supporters of this legislation perpetrated fraud in their presentation of facts to the legislators and the public,†Rayburn said. Guns and booze don’t mix Smith said his goal is not simply to bring to light the fact that most states expressly outlaw carrying weapons in establishments that serve alcohol. Smith believes case law demonstrates that courts believe the possession of guns around alcohol is in and of itself a public nuisance. A 1983 Washington state Supreme Court ruling upheld the constitutionality of a municipal ordinance limiting the possession of firearms where alcoholic beverages are dispensed by the drink. In 1996, Mark Lake was charged with “unlawful carrying of firearm in establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages.†Lake’s case went to the New Mexico Court of Appeals, where the court ruled the statute “was reasonably related to public health, safety and welfare.†Smith said the court’s logic matched with his own, that limiting firearms in places that serve alcohol is an issue of public health, safety and welfare. “The ultimate victory, if it would ever happen, would be for the court to recognize a constitutional right to be free from gun violence, public or private,†Smith said. Smith does have a history of swimming upstream. He was the attorney who represented a Spanish-speaking woman who brought forward a pre-election challenge to the English Only referendum. Smith believed the English Only proposal was unconstitutional and presented special circumstances to be enjoined. He lost, but Smith showed a propensity to fight for specific social issues. “If Metro won’t take up the issue, then we are going to bring a legal challenge,†he said.

Thank you FallGuy. So HCP holders cannot go to a bar unless the "bar" meets the definition of a restaurant shown below.

Ops. I missed that change to the bill. Can you point me or quote the restriction that is limited to restaurants?

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on"><ST1:p<S>Tennessee</S></st1:State><S> law does not distinguish between bars and restaurants. Hence, the HCP gun law that will take effect July 14 is for any establishment that serves alcohol to be consumed on-site. Therefore, it will not be illegal once the law takes effect for HCP holders to carry in either a bar or restaurant. The HCP holder cannot drink while carrying.<O:p</O:p</S> Ops. I did not realize their was a change made to the bill. http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/2nd-amendment-issues/22779-nashville-bar-owners-plan-ban-guns-4.html#post300477

My concern is that restaurants will start posting ban firearms for the same reason that bars are banning firearms. Their biggest concern is liability.<O:p</O:p

Can someone clarify the new law for me? I thought the change to the law is to allow long guns to be in the vehicle along with ammo that is not in the gun. That is to say, the long gun cannot be loaded at all. FYI: I always unloaded my long guns when putting them in the car as a safety habit to avoid a live round firing due to possibility of the gun being jarred in the vehicle. Just like when you cross fences in the field when you are by yourself crossing the fence. I would not want to leave a gun in the vehicle or even in a locked trunk for SHTF. Most vehicles have trunk releases inside the car that most people have enabled and if you have kids, that can impose additional concerns.

I agree. The other interesting statements are about liability concerns that are causing owners to post ban firearm signs.

Nashville bar owners plan to ban guns | tennessean.com | The Tennessean Nightclubs, fearful of violence and liability, enact own rules in defensive approach to new Tennessee law By Kate Howard • THE TENNESSEAN • June 16, 2009 At Doc Holliday's Saloon, the sign over the bar that says "Please Check Your Guns at the Door" used to be a part of the décor. Now it's more of a political stance. Owner Josh Green says his location on Second Avenue is a quiet, mostly local haunt, but he acknowledges that he has shut the bar down on several occasions when violence has heated up a few blocks down. He can't imagine ever willingly letting someone into his bar with a sidearm. Just up the street, Jessie Lee Jones, the owner of Robert's Western World, says he is worried about armed people with ill intent coming into his bar, but he would feel hypocritical to deny the masses that right since he carries his own firearm most places. In the wake of a new state law that allows guns where alcohol is served, bar owners across Middle Tennessee are planning to post signs banning firearms from their establishments. The reason is twofold: public safety and concerns over what liability restaurants might have if they don't act and a shooting occurs. The law goes into effect on July 14. "This law is creating more problems than it'll alleviate," said Green, who opened his bar last fall. "You have to worry about serving people who are underage, people who drink too much, who want to fight. This doesn't help us." Though the National Rifle Association now counts 39 states with some type of law allowing guns where alcohol is served, many of those states have protections for business owners built in, protecting them from blame. The Tennessee legislature may have to pass more laws to protect bars, said Nashville attorney David Raybin. Until that happens, he says, he'd advise clients to post the sign and let someone else be a test case if a shooting were to happen. "My prudent advice would be that, because you have the capacity to exclude people with firearms, if you don't and someone is injured, you run the risk of a greater liability," Raybin said. "Whether that will pan out as a court holding that way is another matter." North Carolina tourist Mark Tilley said he isn't worried about Tennessee's new law. The truck driver was visiting this week with his son, Zachary, 8, and they both hunt and use guns. They don't worry about who may be carrying when they are out and about. But Tilley personally wouldn't bring a gun to a restaurant. He think's it's dangerous. "We don't want to intimidate anybody," Tilley said. "I try not to carry in public because I know people feel uncomfortable … law enforcement are really the only ones who ought to carry in populated areas." Group provides signs All of the business owners Walt Baker has talked to have felt the same way. Baker, CEO of the Tennessee Hospitality Association, said not a single restaurant owner he's spoken with has planned to go along with the new law. "We're going to be providing signage to our members," Baker said. "We're taking orders." While many business owners tell him they're worried about safety, the liability issue is the big unknown, Baker said. "All you have to do is look at the behavior patterns of society," Baker said. "If something happens, you're going to have to hire an attorney. … It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong these days." There are conflicting reports on how common laws like Tennessee's are in the nation. The National Rifle Association reports that 39 states now have some form of a law that allows carrying weapons in places that serve alcohol. The Legal Community Against Violence reports 22 states have laws that ban the practice. A law enacted last year in Georgia allows people to carry weapons into establishments that serve alcohol. The Georgia Restaurant Association opposed the law but ensured a provision was included to say that, so long as an owner wasn't aware that something was going to happen, he or she couldn't be held liable if it did. Owners there are also allowed to post a sign to ban guns if they choose, said Keisha Carter, public affairs director for the Georgia Restaurant Association. "There really hasn't been an impact one way or another," Carter said. "I can't say 100 percent that we all wanted this or not, but the overwhelming majority didn't want to have to make that choice." Jones, owner of the Broadway honky-tonk Robert's, says he will give the new law some time. He hopes, in return, the legislature will make a more stringent process to get handgun carry permits. "I'm willing to oblige, give it a chance and see what happens," Jones said. "But I know the other side of people, the evil side of people. These people should be monitored and evaluated. Before we hand out permits and allow a person to walk into my place of business, I think we should make sure this guy is a person we could trust." Bar owners outside Nashville are approaching the new law with caution. Pam Barnes has already called to have signs made for Coach's EastGate Grille in Lebanon. Barnes said that in her two years as owner, the bar has called the police only once, and that was because someone skipped on a tab. She'd like to keep it that way. "It seems like common sense," she said. At Buster's Place, a Murfreesboro establishment with three decades of history, owner Susan Crockarell definitely plans to ban guns. She has a full house most days, and lots of families who come for burgers. "We don't ever have any trouble in here, and we don't want to start," she said. "I can't imagine any bar owner wanting guns in there, but that's my own personal opinion."

On the other hand, the perpetrators may have parked their car in another section of the neighborhood or an adjoining road to avoid capture. I would be visiting my neighbors, even the people you do not know, and let them know what happen. The neighborhood needs to be on high alert and be on the lookout for strangers or a car cruising the neighborhood in case this was not a prank.

snopes.com: Hidden Camera Surprise

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The fortune 500 companies I have worked for in Nashville are not paying $125 - $200k for senior programmers. What is the name of the company in Chatt you are working for that pays their employees these salaries?

I would avoid the Information Technology software due to many companies are outsourcing their software development and operations (support) to India, China and Brazil to save money on USA labor costs.