"Concealed means concealed"

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Some of you need to go back and study the Civil Right's movement of the 50's and 60's. Sure, the person who owns the restaurant, bus, hotel, or what-have-you might have a right to decide who he wants to serve or refuse service. However, the Congress decided that under the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution, they had the right and authority to regulate certain aspects of business.

Now, many will argue that what if I were to only sell to people in rural Tennessee, quite a distance from the Interstate, using foodstuffs grown and raised locally? Well, Congress and the Supreme Court took that into consideration. If anything you use has a substantial impact on interstate commerce, then Congress has the right to regulate your business. That means if you use pots and pans made outside Tennessee, or if your phone service is provided by a company which does business outside of TN (and, yes, it does), or if you use a cash register built in another State, you impact interstate commerce. You can not go into any business in America without finding some substantial impact on interstate commerce.

Yes, a property owner, be it a business or just personal property, can decide who they want to allow on their property. However, if it can be proven, to a reasonable person standard, that the property owner is discriminating based on race, religion, gender, or national origin, they are in trouble.

When Martin Luthor King Jr. was imprisoned in Birmingham, AL, he wrote what became known as the Birmingham Letters. They were written completely from memory, and quoted philosophers, theologians, politicians, and great writers throughout history. They included direct quotes from some of the greatest documents written on the subjects of government, politics, religion, and philosophy that the world has ever known.

The basic premise of the Birmingham Letters was that there are two types of laws: man's law and natural law. During the 50's, segregation was legal in the southeastern U.S.. A man could be denied access to a bathroom or a schoolroom based on the color of his skin. That was man's law. Natural law says that that kind of treatment is wrong. Natural law says that no man is better than the next. As the Christian religion teaches, all men are equal before God.

King believed that when man's law and natural law differed, it was up to the people to bring about change. King believed that through Civil Disobedience, even the average person could affect change in his or her life. King felt that natural law was the higher, more moral law, and therefore, was the law which should be followed.

As with segregating bathrooms based on color, it is against natural law for me to be stripped of my right to self-defense simply because of where I choose to dine. Why am I thought of as a responsible citizen in my home, where I can posess all of the guns and alcohol I desire, but I suddenly become irresponsible the moment I walk into an Applebee's? Or when I take a walk in Centennial Park, or along the Greenway here in Murfreesboro? I'm responsible as long as I am buying a six-pack of beer at University Market, across from MTSU's campus; but as soon as I walk northeast 50 steps, I become a criminal? That's ludicrous, at a minimum, and in my mind, criminal of the State to make that assumption about me!

Sure, it is wrong to be under the influence of alcohol and carrying a gun, just as it is wrong to be under the influence of alcohol and operating a car. There is no doubt that alcohol impairs judgement and slows reflexes. Why is illegal for me to go into a restaurant that sells alcohol, while carrying a gun, even though I am not drinking, but it is fine for me to drive a car to a restaurant and even consume alcohol, as long as I don't exceed a BAC of 0.08%? The gap in logic is lost on me.

[Marswolf]

A couple of points here.

If you carry unlawfully in a place that serves alcohol and are caught, you can be charged. But, if you have to use that unlawfully carried gun to protect yourself in justifiable self defense of a crime against themselves or others, you will not be charged:

39-17-1322. Defenses

A person shall not be charged with or convicted of a violation under this part if the

person possessed, displayed or employed a handgun in justifiable self-defense or in

justifiable defense of another during the commission of a crime in which that person

or the other person defended was a victim.

[Acts 1994, ch. 943, § 1.]

Second point - if you want to change these bad gun laws, you have to work at the grassroots to elect people who will support and vote for such change. Ranting here won't fix it.

[Guest Kingfish]

Second point - if you want to change these bad gun laws, you have to work at the grassroots to elect people who will support and vote for such change. Ranting here won't fix it.

Well, I have done all I can. I have written numerous letters and made many phone calls. Personally talked to 2 reps. Most of them say they are pro 2A but you know how that goes.

The reason I am done is because we are moving to Southern Alabama (has it's own gun law issues) in 2 months (wife is getting her Doctorate) and will be there for about 3 years and will not be coming back here. After 'Bama it is on to Wyoming (Open carry anywhere no permit required..No state regulations on OC.) or another FREE state.

[Marswolf]

Well Kingfish, thanks for doing your part.

I think a lot of people are surprised when they find out that representatives actually listen to them. Politicians like the PAC special interest money, but they are more interested in actual votes to keep them in power.

But people have to learn that if you don't contact your representative, they can't listen to you.

[jgrauman]

Why is illegal for me to go into a restaurant that sells alcohol, while carrying a gun, even though I am not drinking, but it is fine for me to drive a car to a restaurant and even consume alcohol, as long as I don't exceed a BAC of 0.08%? The gap in logic is lost on me.

great post. not sure of the number, but numerous states allow you to carry AND drink as long as you BAC is below the legal limit. i'm searching for the link

[DaveTN]

Well, I have done all I can. I have written numerous letters and made many phone calls. Personally talked to 2 reps. Most of them say they are pro 2A but you know how that goes.

Yes, it means that they are not on the Supreme Court of the United States so they not only don’t have anything to say about it; but no one cares what their opinion on the 2nd is.

In trying to get legislators in Illinois to even talk about concealed carry one of the biggest hurdles is to get pro-gun folks to understand that they can’t let the words “2nd amendment†pass their lips while discussing carry permits. Once you start that discussion you are doomed. We need to be asking our legislators to change the laws that we don’t like; not telling them they are violating our rights.

[DaveTN]

Sure, it is wrong to be under the influence of alcohol and carrying a gun, just as it is wrong to be under the influence of alcohol and operating a car. There is no doubt that alcohol impairs judgement and slows reflexes. Why is illegal for me to go into a restaurant that sells alcohol, while carrying a gun, even though I am not drinking, but it is fine for me to drive a car to a restaurant and even consume alcohol, as long as I don't exceed a BAC of 0.08%? The gap in logic is lost on me.

I don’t care one way or the other on the liquor thing. But let me take a WAG as to why.

Judgment is effected quickly when consuming alcohol; way before .08%. Apparently the legislators didn’t feel they wanted to get into the legal mess of proving BAC.

but it is fine for me to drive a car to a restaurant and even consume alcohol, as long as I don't exceed a BAC of 0.08%? The gap in logic is lost on me.

Is it fine? Can you be arrested in Tennessee for DUI with a BAC of less than .08%?

[Guest Len]

Exactly! There never used to be this rule that Democrats had to be "liberal" and Republicans "conservative." These are not synonymous terms. One can easily be a conservative Democrat (there are millions of them around) and one can also easily be a liberal Republican (not so common around these parts, but there are a few, and more up north.)

The philosophical ideals that make up "liberalism" or "conservativism" do not equate with the platforms of the two political parties, neither on paper or in action. Gun control is more a philosophical issue than a political one. I can find you bucket loads of Republicans who support strong gun control and I can find boatloads of Democrats (both "liberal" and "conservative") that support the 2A as written.

Equating liberalism with Democrats and conservatism with Republicans does an injustice to both philosophies and overly flatters both political parties.

(in my humble opinion.)

She understands that she is a conservative democrat?

[Guest ETS_Inc]

I don’t care one way or the other on the liquor thing. But let me take a WAG as to why.

Judgment is effected quickly when consuming alcohol; way before .08%. Apparently the legislators didn’t feel they wanted to get into the legal mess of proving BAC.

Is it fine? Can you be arrested in Tennessee for DUI with a BAC of less than .08%?

They might cite you for public intox, or something similiar, but DUI in TN, for a person 21 years and older means a BAC of 0.08% or higher. I can't even have 0.000001% BAC and be carrying a gun. And any idiot, even a felon, can get a driver's license. Heck, it's even possible to have your license reinstated after a DUI or two. Even if you commit vehicular homicide while intoxicated.

Yet, those of us who've jumped through hoops, recieved training, and proven that we are responsible adults can't be trusted to continue to act responsible while in the presence of alcohol in public. I'm no mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging neandrathal, who gets into barfights, much less settles them with a smoking gun. Why am I treated as such?

I'll tell you why:

Because GUN CONTROL IS NOT ABOUT GUNS, IT'S ABOUT CONTROL!

[Guest Kingfish]

Equating liberalism with Democrats and conservatism with Republicans does an injustice to both philosophies and overly flatters both political parties.

(in my humble opinion.)

Well said. Although I have never voted for a democrat, I would if he/she were more conservative than the republican.

[DaveTN]

Yet, those of us who've jumped through hoops, recieved training, and proven that we are responsible adults......

I'll tell you why:

Because GUN CONTROL IS NOT ABOUT GUNS, IT'S ABOUT CONTROL!

Lets be real man… you didn’t jump through hoops… you paid money. Training is a joke….. Most here can’t even answer the most basic questions about Tennessee gun laws and have no idea how they would act in a deadly force situation. And proven you are responsible how? No… I’m sorry but the fact that you bought a carry permit doesn’t make you all those things.

Control??? You live in Tennessee and you think your legislators have gun control issues??

I support my pro-gun legislators and I realize that my gun privileges in Tennessee come from them; not from the Constitution. When I look at the privileges I have as compared to other states I certainly don’t think my legislators have control issues. If they want to ban carry where liquor is consumed; they have my support. If I needed to carry all time I just wouldn’t go in those places.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Lets be real man… you didn’t jump through hoops… you paid money. Training is a joke….. Most here can’t even answer the most basic questions about Tennessee gun laws and have no idea how they would act in a deadly force situation.

That's a pretty sweeping generalization. There are several HERE that I would actively seek their advice and opinion on how our laws are written, likely to be interpreted, and the history behnd them. That's pretty presumptuous of you.

And proven you are responsible how? No… I’m sorry but the fact that you bought a carry permit doesn’t make you all those things.

No? I have paid fees, taken a mandatory course, and submitted for fingerprinting and a background check prior to getting my permit. Sounds pretty responsible to me. It has PROVEN that I am responsible enough to not have a serious criminal record if nothing else, which is the action of a responsible individual. Furthermore, where I to be IRresponsible, I wouldn't bother with a permit to begin with.

Control??? You live in Tennessee and you think your legislators have gun control issues??

Yup. Not nearly as bad as some other states, but the issues are there nontheless... condescending smilies don't change that.

I support my pro-gun legislators and I realize that my gun privileges in Tennessee come from them; not from the Constitution.

Educate us ignorant masses, please... where do you feel your "priveleges" come from? Do you have rights, or only priveleges?

When I look at the privileges I have as compared to other states I certainly don’t think my legislators have control issues. If they want to ban carry where liquor is consumed; they have my support.

You would support that? Then where do you draw the line? How much regulation would you consider too much?

If I needed to carry all time I just wouldn’t go in those places.

I wasn't aware you could predict when, how, and where you would need your firearm. Unfortunately I cannot do that, so I'd rather be able to carry all of the time, thank you very much. Do you only wear your eatbelt when on the interstate, afterall, that's when you are going REALLY fast and might need it the most.

[Guest db99wj]

I would like to see the next time an armed robbery happens in an establishment that serves alcohol where a parton or employee is merely "scared" go to a lawsuit by a permit holder that was left "defenseless" thanks to the stupid laws.

I really wish more of us would open carry so the average Joe on the street could see who he is actually "affraid" of having a gun. The criminals will never do it, but the law abiding citizens should give it a try some time. I frequently open carry on the way to work. Have gone in to Chik-Fil-A, Mapco and several other places with it on. No one said a word. Ran in to 0Down at Mapco, he was the only one that commented.

I will second Mars sentiment that business owners have the right to refuse service to ANYONE as long as it is a "private" business not owned or operated by the government. If I choose not to let Mars in, that is my choice. If I choose not to let in women, that is my choice. Will I be crucified for it and have every Tom, Dick and Hippy picketing outside? Probably, but that too is my choice.

I have the right to make bad choices as long as I Man up and take the consequences.

Good day.

If you ran into 0Down at a Mapco in Memphis, I am going to assume that it was in what he affectionately calls "Little Fallujah" part of Memphis....you might as well have been, everyone else had one on, you were just legally doing it!

[Guest ETS_Inc]

DaveTN,

As a TN Department of Safety certified Carry Permit Instructor, I am partly offended at your comment that training here is a joke.

Yes, the State mandated minimum amount of training is low. However, some of us instructors strive to provide the best training possible, given the restraints of time and State guidelines. I will take the opportunity to point out that there are a number of States where no amount of training is required at all. At least here in TN you recieve at least a small amount of training on legal issues, safety, and pistol marksmanship.

Is it a cash cow for the State? Absolutely. If it weren't, you wouldn't have to spend $115 for the first 4 years, and $50 for every subsequent 4 years. Personally, I believe you should be allowed to carry without need fo ra permit, a la Vermont and Alaska. However, that means no required training, and how many people do you honestly believe would pay for something that isn't required? Let me tell you: very few.

It is people like you who kowtow to the legislators and their whims that we can thank for having our rights abridged. The U.S. Constitution and its accompanying Bill of Rights are the Supreme Law of the Land, hence the Supremecy Clause. However, we Tennesseans have had our right to keep and bear arms relegated to a "privilege"? That's just wrong!

I have proven myself to be a responsible citizen, by not having ever spent a night incarcerated and by having my most serious conviction being a bunch of speeding tickets. I spent 8 years in the Army, protecting the very Liberty that you enjoy daily. I have shown that I can be trusted to walk around civilized society with a gun on my person without killing anyone who isn't trying to take my life, or the life/lives of my loved ones. So, yes, a simple background check is indicative of personal responsibility. When that check comes back clean, it means I'm responsible. Unfortunately, I have to pay the State for them to see if I'm responsible, and even then, they won't fully trust me.

Now, I'd like the number of the person with whom you set up your appointments for danger, if you don't mind. Because I don't remember anyone ever telling me how exactly to know, 100% of the time, when bad stuff would happen. If I knew for certain, I'd definitely avoid those places. However, bad things happen all over. They aren't limited to Antioch, Madison, or Bordeaux. They happen in places like Franklin, Brentwood, and Murfreesboro, as well. You might remember the guy who decided to shoot it out with the cops in Brentwood, after robbing a bank. I doubt the people at the intersection thought there would be an AR-wielding criminal shooting up downtown Brentwood at lunchtime. If they had, maybe they would have stayed home too. Or, maybe you never leave the confines of your fortified bunker. I wish I could do that. Unfortunately, I have to go to work, the grocery store, the bank, and a host of other places. Sometimes, my car even breaks down on the side of the road when I least expect it to do so. I don't intend to be stuck there, but I darn sure am.

Sir, I invite you to come sit in on one of my carry permit classes, and then you can talk about how much of a joke my training is. Until then, please think twice before you make disparaging comments about me, my profession, and my peers.

[Guest Phantom6]

Well, as a state certified permit instructor myself, I'd have to say that ETS_Inc covered my position on your post pretty well.

In the interest of full disclosure however, I must say that I have never served as a police officer or had the privilege of serving in the military but I have worked with highly specialized and highly motivated military and police units from Dayton, OH to Mobile, AL, Beaufort, SC to Junction City, KS, and most points in between over the last 30 years so I'm reasonably sure, just as apparently as others are, that I know what it is that I do pretty well.

DaveTN, you are welcome to attend one of my permit classes as well. After your 10 hours (my required minimum time for a permit class) with me then we'll see how much of a joke I present there. I can guarantee you that without a doubt you will have a better understanding of what it takes not only legally, morally and ethically to carry a gun in the state of Tennessee but mentally as well.

[molonlabetn]

Lets be real man… you didn’t jump through hoops… you paid money. Training is a joke….. Most here can’t even answer the most basic questions about Tennessee gun laws and have no idea how they would act in a deadly force situation. And proven you are responsible how? No… I’m sorry but the fact that you bought a carry permit doesn’t make you all those things.

Control??? You live in Tennessee and you think your legislators have gun control issues??

I support my pro-gun legislators and I realize that my gun privileges in Tennessee come from them; not from the Constitution. When I look at the privileges I have as compared to other states I certainly don’t think my legislators have control issues. If they want to ban carry where liquor is consumed; they have my support. If I needed to carry all time I just wouldn’t go in those places.

While your generalization may be quite true of some HCP holders who think that the basic course required to gain the permit is sufficient, Frank is one of several folks on here who do not deserve that label. He can speak for himself, and already has... but take care who you judge based on internet contact. He has certainly nothing to prove to any of us.

This is where folks come together to (hopefully in a mature manner) discuss the issues, and sometimes debate the extreme portions of controversial subjects... we won't always agree, but hopefully maintain some objectivity about the fact that real-life is somewhere in between the extreme points of view presented.

I respect your opinion, even when we disagree ('cause we sure have), but we are both entitled to our beliefs. Such as open-carry... unquestionably legal, though we debate whether it is the 'best' choice... ultimately, it is my choice... and your choice.

On the firearm 'privilege' topic... Can you point me to the document-of-record, perhaps TN code or AG opinion which defines the RKBA as a 'privilege'? I have looked for it, but never found it... perhaps I didn't look in the right places? The only place I have seen the term used (informally, at that) was the TN HCP video given in several HCP classes... and based on the extensive incorrect information elsewhere in that video, I don't give it much credence.

As my final statement on the bar issue... I personally don't go to bars, for the same reasons you gave. My position is simply that the location of oneself, and the relative location of one's firearm should have no bearing on the right of a person to be in a public place, (or open-to-the-public), absent any other behavior which was irresponsible/illegal. Drinking and firearms do not mix... I agree. Neither to driving and alcohol... but last time I checked, every bar has a parking-lot.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Dave Tn,

Yeah, some of us have training resumes that might surprise you. Some of us know EXACTLY how we would deal with a situation because we ALREADY HAVE. So be careful when you paint with a broad brush.

I know all about how ridiculous Illinois law is. The last 2 classes I have taught I've had 3 people from Illinois fly down here to take those classes. I know we have it much better than they do, but does that mean we should just be GRATEFUL that we are "allowed" to defend ourselves and you were not? Does that mean we should be happy to be able to merely carry a gun and defend ourselves in a FEW places? NO we work to get the law we want. THIS IS NOT THE UK.

Those of us that actually teach the TN carry course know the state mandated standard is generous. But those of us that take this seriously include more material than what is mandated. I include what to look for in impending criminal assault, signs that it is about to happen and verbal and physical cues that an assault is imminent, distance issues and reaction time and a host of other things that are not covered in the minimal lesson plan the state mandates. BUt I cover that in my class.

I add that stuff because I feel it is THAT important that I "give it away" free. So don't give me any crap about the class being a joke. In my class you get stuff you have to take advanced courses(and pay big $$$$) in big gun schools to get. And I give it away.

Do some people take the CCW class and then NEVER do anything else after? Of course . Some think that class makes 'em "Ready to take on the world". But everyone I teach leaves knowing it is the BEGINNING not the end and further training is not only recommended, but the responsible thing to do. They leave knowing the gun is A solution not THE solution. And it is often the solution only after you have made many other mistakes in awareness and judgment.

BUt then there are some permit holders who spend big $$$ to take as many classes from different schools (like 15 classes in 19 months) as they can so they are as well trained as they can be. No reason THOSE people should be limited in where they carry as their continuing education is better than that of ANY police officer.

Some of us KNOW the law in TN. So to categorize every permit holder as a bumpkin who neither knows the law, nor has any skill with his gun, nor knows when to use it is insulting at best. Maybe YOU fit that description but some of us DO NOT. Some of us are master class shooters, published authors and instructors. So again please keep your broad brush to yourself.

[Guest c.a.s.]

Case in point...Hold on, I have to find that link...This video was posted in a blog in which a guy was talking about going to the range for the first time with a new shooter, and used it to show what happenes when the "Four Rules" aren't adhered to. Keep i mind, we PAY THIS GUY to teach our kids gun safety nad to stop crime. I think I'll trsu Phantom and ETS a lot more than him...

http://toolazytofail.com/2007/06/14/new-shooter-going-to-the-range-with-me-read-this

I thought it was a youtube, but he's personally hosting it.

"I;m the only one in here proffesoinal enou--" BANG

[DaveTN]

As a TN Department of Safety certified Carry Permit Instructor, I am partly offended at your comment that training here is a joke.

To you (and the others here that are instructors) I apologize if you think my comments were aimed at your teaching abilities; they were not. My comment was directed at the state training requirements for a carry permit. Considering that someone is trained to be carrying a firearm after 8 hours of training is laughable.

[DaveTN]

Dave Tn,

Yeah, some of us have training resumes that might surprise you. Some of us know EXACTLY how we would deal with a situation because we ALREADY HAVE. So be careful when you paint with a broad brush.

Have you done it? Have you stood face to face with and armed assailant and taken his life? Do you know what goes through your mind? Do you know how your mind and body reacts?

BUt then there are some permit holders who spend big $$$ to take as many classes from different schools (like 15 classes in 19 months) as they can so they are as well trained as they can be. No reason THOSE people should be limited in where they carry as their continuing education is better than that of ANY police officer.

Any Police Officer? Broad Brush?

[DaveTN]

On the firearm 'privilege' topic... Can you point me to the document-of-record, perhaps TN code or AG opinion which defines the RKBA as a 'privilege'? I have looked for it, but never found it... perhaps I didn't look in the right places? The only place I have seen the term used (informally, at that) was the TN HCP video given in several HCP classes... and based on the extensive incorrect information elsewhere in that video, I don't give it much credence.

I’m not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that you think you have a RIGHT to bear arms? I think we have a right to bear arms. Unfortunately what you and I think does not count; we must live by the laws and the decisions of the court.

If you think that you have a right, where does that right come from?

I submit that you do not have a right to carry a firearm. Therefore the state granting you the privilege; is just that.

If you are carrying a firearm without a permit and it is discovered by a Police Officer, you can be arrested for no crime other than possession of a firearm. Therefore your state does not recognize it as a right; rights do not require permits.

[Marswolf]

First, we need to keep this place friendly. This isn't a pissing contest.

The issues raised here are I think valid about the level of training required for obtaining a carry permit. I also think the matter of rights versus privileges is valid.

My conclusions (I seldom give "opinions")?

You are born with rights, such as the right to protect yourself. No document bestows rights and no government may legitimately take away a right. So, in this country, regrettably, there is no legally recognized right to have a gun, regardless of what the US and Tennessee Constitution say. The right actually exists, but that right is trampled on by government.

I think the minimum requirements for obtaining a carry permit are fine or perhaps excessive. It gives a bit of legal background about when you may legally carry and when you may not. That's useful and every citizen should know the law. The actual gun handling qualification part is a joke. You could be blind and spun around three times and still pass. In my view, just handing out a publication telling you the law would be adequate. And I see no need for a permit. It's an expensive good citizenship certificate, not an indication of ability to properly handle a handgun, especially in a bad situation.

And in case anyone is wondering, yes I have been in a bad situation involving guns and bad people many times in my life. I will claim real-world experience in that area. What I will tell you is that if you visualize a situation and train for it, when the time comes you will probably be able to act. But you don't know until you get there.

[Guest Hyaloid]

I find it odd that so many firearm enthusiasts are quick to point out all of the experience they have, and many times imply how much combat action they have seen, etc etc. We often say police do not have "Jedi-like" powers over firearms, well guess what, no one does.

All of that experience is fine and dandy, and I applaud folks who have served and done what they had to do to survive whatever encounters they have had. I sincerely mean that. However, don't look down your nose at the common Joe who wishes to protect themselves with a firearm. I have never driven in the Indy 500 either, but I consider myself a pretty safe driver.

I will freely admit I am not, nor have a ever been a cop, in the military, or served in any capacity in any position that required me to take a life. That does not make me unable to form opinions (or conclusions ), nor does it revoke my right/privilege to be able to protect myself and my family from those that would do them harm, or the ability to protect them with the best tool I have available, my firearm.

Firearms are a tool, as we all know. Are some carpenters better with a hammer than others? Sure. I also have little doubt in my mind that there is a long line of people on this board, and in this world who could out-shoot me easily. But, I can also tell you that I feel confident in my ability to stop a threat should it present itself. I hope I never have to prove myself right or wrong in that regard.

I think we are probably all experts on one thing or another. I have spent a large portion of my life learning about the human body and the eyes, and the medicines and materials that can be used to benefit my fellow man. I don't tell people who come to see me that their opinion is baseless and worthless because they don't know as much about the eye as I do. Neither should it be implied that my opinions don't carry weight because I have not BTDT.

Humbly submitted for your flaming.

[Guest Hyaloid]

... If I needed to carry all time I just wouldn’t go in those places.

Isn't that one of the favorite rebuttals of the anti crowd? Just don't go places where you will need a firearm.... easy, now we don't have to have a concealed carry statute!

[DaveTN]

I find it odd that so many firearm enthusiasts are quick to point out all of the experience they have, and many times imply how much combat action they have seen, etc etc. We often say police do not have "Jedi-like" powers over firearms, well guess what, no one does.

All of that experience is fine and dandy, and I applaud folks who have served and done what they had to do to survive whatever encounters they have had. I sincerely mean that. However, don't look down your nose at the common Joe who wishes to protect themselves with a firearm. I have never driven in the Indy 500 either, but I consider myself a pretty safe driver.

I will freely admit I am not, nor have a ever been a cop, in the military, or served in any capacity in any position that required me to take a life. That does not make me unable to form opinions (or conclusions ), nor does it revoke my right/privilege to be able to protect myself and my family from those that would do them harm, or the ability to protect them with the best tool I have available, my firearm.

Firearms are a tool, as we all know. Are some carpenters better with a hammer than others? Sure. I also have little doubt in my mind that there is a long line of people on this board, and in this world who could out-shoot me easily. But, I can also tell you that I feel confident in my ability to stop a threat should it present itself. I hope I never have to prove myself right or wrong in that regard.

I think we are probably all experts on one thing or another. I have spent a large portion of my life learning about the human body and the eyes, and the medicines and materials that can be used to benefit my fellow man. I don't tell people who come to see me that their opinion is baseless and worthless because they don't know as much about the eye as I do. Neither should it be implied that my opinions don't carry weight because I have not BTDT.

Humbly submitted for your flaming.

Who is looking down their nose at you? There are people on this forum that have actually been in shootings. Not in combat, but encountering a criminal face to face on the street in exactly the type of scenario that you may find yourself in some day. If those people try to share their experiences of what you need to know to stay alive or to even avoid a shooting in the first place; that is not looking down their nose at you.

If you are saying that now that you have been through your 8 hours of smoking and joking at the range and paid your money to the state; that makes you Jack Bauer... most folks are looking down their nose at you.

You listen to everyone, you take any advice at the range that is offered, you look at who is offering the info, why, and if they have a clue. You keep the good and throw out the bad.

There are bad guys out there that are experts and have as much experience as probably anyone of this forum. Do not think that because they are criminals they won’t shoot you dead in a confrontation?

Look at both sides of things. You don’t like me telling you that you don’t have right to own a firearm in Tennessee. Your reaction to that is emotional; not logical. Sure we could all run around yelling that the 2nd amendment gives us the right to bear arms. I mean after all we all are patriots and that’s what patriots do right? Wrong, patriots don’t pick and choose what parts of the Constitution they agree with, they don’t pick and choose what laws they want to abide by. Our Federal Courts have established that the 2nd amendment is protection for the state; not an individual right. You and I may not agree that is what our founding fathers intended; but that is the law. There is nothing right about violating parts of the carry laws in Tennessee that you don’t agree with.

I may be a little passionate about this, but I have lived in states that allow no one to carry firearms except the Police.

As far as your driving abilities…. I submit that Danica Patrick would embarrass you and she’s a girl.