Pulled on an intruder

[Guest WIMPY]

My neighbor left town and left someone house sitting, wish he had told me. The doorbell ran 0530 and by the time I get my shorts on and gathered up my two German friends [ H & K ] and get to the door no one was around. I step out on the porch to check the yard and see this young w/m dressed in shorts, no shirt, running down the street and up my drive way. He starts toward me on the sidewalk, I ask him to stop, he keeps coming, I show my H&K, he stops and tells me he is staying next door and has gotten locked out. I have no reason to believe him and advise him to leave which he does. The MPD arrives later & the guy is over in the neighbors yard. Turns out his story checked out. I've been carrying for 5-6 years and I quess I always wondered if I could pull my weapon on someone if I felt the need to do so.

[molonlabetn]

Well, he obviously wasn't paying attention to you verbal commands... availing oneself to the next level of deterrence sounds pretty reasonable to me, can't be too careful these days.

I bet you buddy's neighbor won't be asking for help again, ever!

Glad everything turned out alright.

[The Rabbi]

Somehow I dont think you'll make premier spot on the Welcome Wagon....

[saintsfanbrian]

Hey, if you were my neighbor, I would be thanking you for making sure your stuff (and my stuff) was safe.

[Tempest455]

Ditto. Better safe than sorry.

[towerclimber37]

what is it with young people today? they don't LISTEN anymore.

Nice work Tempest!

Peace through superior firepower...I always loved that saying. Its the perfect tagline.

[Mike.357]

Tower says

Peace through superior firepower

You ever get the M44 and you can use it, lmao!!

[The Rabbi]

Ditto. Better safe than sorry.

Actually I think Wimpy is lucky he didnt end up with an assault charge. Still, I wasnt there and the description isn't all that clear.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Actually I think Wimpy is lucky he didnt end up with an assault charge. Still, I wasnt there and the description isn't all that clear.

For having a drawn weapon on his own property in response to an individual rushing towards him disobeying commands to stop?

I think he is lucky no one was hurt, everyone went to sleep that night with the same number of God given holes in their body that they started out the day with. And now the neighbor's friend has an amusing (in hindsight I'm sure) story to tell his grandkids...."One time I met this wacko with a gun in Tennessee..."

[The Rabbi]

Maybe that's what happened or maybe the other fellow was well away, far enough away not to constitute an immediate threat, and the homeowner drew down on him, despite having plenty of other options.

As I said, it's hard to say from the description.

[Guest Steelharp]

He says he "showed" it. That could mean any number of things. If he did not point it directly at the kid (and he has a valid permit), then he didn't "threaten" or "brandish."

[jgrauman]

Actually I think Wimpy is lucky he didnt end up with an assault charge. Still, I wasnt there and the description isn't all that clear.

has the devil paid a retainer for your practice??

[towerclimber37]

hmm...lets see..

its dark.

a stranger is RUNNING towards your door and you tell him to stop.

He doesn't.

I don't care what YOU do rabbi...I'm going to do whatever is necessary to make him stop so I can assess the threat before he gets close enough to do me harm.

don't be so afraid to defend yourself that you lose the will to defend yourself.

[bteague2]

despite having plenty of other options.

He was on his own property, isn't there some law about not having to retreat? He did great and his neighbor's friend is lucky.

[The Rabbi]

He was on his own property, isn't there some law about not having to retreat? He did great and his neighbor's friend is lucky.

It isnt clear to me what the situation was.

5:30AM isnt dark. The guy didnt appear to be armed, or not with anything that could be a threat outside of 30 feet. Wimpy was on his deck and the guy was on the street or maybe just on the driveway. How far away is that? I dunno. Could he have just gone inside and closed the door? I dunno. Was there some other reason the guy didnt hear him, passing car or train maybe? I dunno.

He "showed him the gun." Did he open a box and display it? Did he pick it up by the muzzle and show him the butt? Did he aim the loaded weapon at his head? I dunno.

A prosecutor and/or cop will be making the judgement as to whether he was reasonably in fear of imminent death or severe bodily harm. He is going to consider all these things in deciding to arrest or prosecute.

But now imagine yourself as the housesitter. You go out to pick up your paper dressed only in shorts and the door closes behind you, locking you out. What do you do? You ask the neighbors because people commonly do leave extra keys with them. So you see start to go up to one house and knock on the door. No answer. You think to try someone else and while going out the door opens. You want to attract the homeowner's attention so run towards him. He says something you can't hear and the next thing you know this yayhoo has pulled a gun on you and is pointing it at your head.

As I say, I wasnt there and don't know a lot of the details.

[saintsfanbrian]

But would you "run towards him" or raise up your arm and say something. Unless there is a fire or something, I usually don't run towards anyone that I don't know. If the person turned around and went back in side, I would simply walk back up to the door and knock again. I would know some one was home and they would be able to answer the door and I could ask them my question.

[molonlabetn]

If this scenario had happened to a LEO, what do you think the LEO would have done? Waited for the guy to run up to him? Run away and hide to wait for backup?

The only error in judgment by either party, was by the neighbor running towards an unknown person, ignoring the commands to 'stop'. It doesn't matter to me how the gun was displayed... if he got very close, he's lucky to (as Hyaloid so aptly put) still only have the same number of holes that God gave him.

If a fella I didn't know was running towards me across my yard, and ignoring my challenge, he'd be facing a muzzle and a rather territorial dog before he came within 10yd.

[The Rabbi]

If this scenario had happened to a LEO, what do you think the LEO would have done? Waited for the guy to run up to him? Run away and hide to wait for backup?

Given that LEOs are under intense scrutiny and have to account in writing for their actions I doubt one would have pulled his gun at someone too far away to be a threat.

But it is irrelevant anyway.

What would a priest have done? What would a plumber have done? WWJD?

[molonlabetn]

Given that LEOs are under intense scrutiny and have to account in writing for their actions I doubt one would have pulled his gun at someone too far away to be a threat...

Why not? They pull their weapons for lots of other reasons... And even if the person was initially too far away to be a threat, that makes no difference because he is rapidly moving towards you, and soon will be close enough to be a threat if he is not deterred.

[The Rabbi]

Why not? They pull their weapons for lots of other reasons... And even if the person was initially too far away to be a threat, that makes no difference because he is rapidly moving towards you, and soon will be close enough to be a threat if he is not deterred.

In that case Wimpy should have pulled his scoped rifle and taken him out at 100 yards because if he didnt he might have turned into a threat.

Again, the situation of an LE is fundamentally different from that of a private citizen, so I dont see why anyone would bring it up.

[molonlabetn]

In that case Wimpy should have pulled his scoped rifle and taken him out at 100 yards because if he didnt he might have turned into a threat.

Again, the situation of an LE is fundamentally different from that of a private citizen, so I dont see why anyone would bring it up.

In some situations, yes, but regular citizens have no less right to defend themselves... bringing up the reaction of a professional trained in response is relevant, because it illustrates what the obvious reaction to an incoming threat should be... Go randomly run towards a police officer without acknowledging their challenge, and see how close you get before waking up (if you're lucky) in the hospital.

Is your point that we somehow have less of a right to stop a perceived threat? I'll grant that it is not our duty, but to ignore the opportunity for prudent preparation for deterring harm is senseless. 100yd with a scoped rifle is ridiculous... unless the other person is equally armed and taking hostile, potentially harmful action towards you.

[saintsfanbrian]

I have to agree with molon here rabbi. When some one is running at you and ignoring you saying stop don't come any closer, they ARE a threat. Thankfully, the other person was able to finally stop and turn around with any damage done. Yes, I have the same rights as a police officer to go home safely at night. If you are running at me with no real reason to be doing so other than your own impatience and if I tell you to stop and not come any closer, whether I am at my house or at McDonalds, you are likely to be staring at a barrel yourself.

[Urse]

Isn't this situation the whole reason HB 1907(Castle Doctrine) was recently passed. I would think the "average" citizen would be inclined to pull a gun sooner than the "trained" LE. After all the LE has self defense training that the "average" citizen does not. I would argue that the citizen does not have to show as much restraint as the LE because he would feel endangered sooner than the LE. I have already thought about the responsibilities and hazards of owning and using a gun for self defense. I am not gonna waste my time worrying about the repercussions of my actions. That is a split second I may not have. As the old saying goes I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.

[Urse]

Good Job Wimpy!

[The Rabbi]

In some situations, yes, but regular citizens have no less right to defend themselves... bringing up the reaction of a professional trained in response is relevant, because it illustrates what the obvious reaction to an incoming threat should be... Go randomly run towards a police officer without acknowledging their challenge, and see how close you get before waking up (if you're lucky) in the hospital.

Is your point that we somehow have less of a right to stop a perceived threat? I'll grant that it is not our duty, but to ignore the opportunity for prudent preparation for deterring harm is senseless. 100yd with a scoped rifle is ridiculous... unless the other person is equally armed and taking hostile, potentially harmful action towards you.

The threat has to be something realistic and the scenario as laid out did not appear to me to reach the level of threat sufficient to warrant pulling a gun on the individual. It would have been sufficient to have the gun strategically placed for fast presentation if the need arose.

But I would sure hate to be arguing that one in court.