why obtain a Class III license?

[Guest justme]

Ok, so here is a question I have been wondering for a while:

Could anyone explain why they would be willing to go through the trouble of jumping through hoops to obtain a Class 3 license from the feds---from my own personal standpoint--I would not want the feds or any other member of LE showing up at my door demanding entrance to examine my weapons/license. I guess I just value my anonymity too much to try and obtain a Class 3 license--but was wondering why those of you who have one--did it.

[nightrunner]

only reason i can see is if you are either making NFA-restricted firearms or selling them, then you have no choice.

[Reservoir Dog]

Doesn't bother me a bit. I have owned NFA weapons since 1995, and I have never heard a peep from the ATF. Unless there is some kind of problem with your application/transfer, you will never hear from the ATF.

Too many people believe that because you own NFA items, the ATF can show up and search you house for the weapon. Simply not true.

[willis68]

Doesn't bother me a bit. I have owned NFA weapons since 1995, and I have never heard a peep from the ATF. Unless there is some kind of problem with your application/transfer, you will never hear from the ATF.

Too many people believe that because you own NFA items, the ATF can show up and search you house for the weapon. Simply not true.

Perhaps, but do you own a Class 3 license like the OP asked? or just own a few weapons

[Reservoir Dog]

Perhaps, but do you own a Class 3 license like the OP asked? or just own a few weapons

I'm not a dealer, if that is what you are asking. But a lot of people mistakenly think you need a "class 3 license" to own NFA items as an individual. His question seemed to be asking about individual ownership, not as a dealer.

If you are a dealer with a Class 3 SOT, then you already have at least a 01 FFL, and are therefore open for ATF inspections whether you have a SOT or not. If that is the case, then his question doesn't make any sense.

[willis68]

I think he meant a dealer, at least that is how I took his post

[Reservoir Dog]

I think he meant a dealer...

Then the post doesn't make sense. A dealer is already subject to periodic ATF inspections, regardless if he has Class 3 stuff, or not.

[nightrunner]

yea, i think the OP needs to clarify, is this a class 3 dealer license or just getting a stamp for a NFA weapon (SBS, SBR, machine gun etc.)

[DaveTN]

You don’t buy a license. You buy a tax stamp.

Why would you buy one? Because if you need one you have (or want) a class III weapon, and if you don’t pay the tax you will go to the big house and stay with Bubba.

If you are talking about a Class 3 FFL (C&R)… its because we aren’t afraid of the ATF.

Edited May 23, 2009 by DaveTN

[Guest justme]

I think he meant a dealer, at least that is how I took his post

actually no--I meant my question to mean that as an individual why would you want to go to the trouble of obtaining what I have always called a class III license to own an automatic or a SBR..

or do you actually need a class 3 license to own/buy a select fire/fully auto or SBR?

My impression--and perhaps I am wrong--I always thought that if you owned a class 3 firearm you had to have a special license from the ATF, and that once you had the "license" I always thought they could simply walk up to your door and demand entrance at any time to inspect the weapon or search your home for other class 3 weapons and could do so without a warrant? Am I wrong?

[DaveTN]

Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. You have nothing to fear. If the ATF shows up at your house unannounced they are going to have a warrant. Now see…. You were worrying about something that won’t even happen.

[nightrunner]

and you dont get a license. you buy a stamp good for only one weapon. just their way of giving you a special receipt for paying a tax on the restricted weapon

[Reservoir Dog]

I always thought they could simply walk up to your door and demand entrance at any time to inspect the weapon or search your home for other class 3 weapons and could do so without a warrant? Am I wrong?

100% wrong.

I have heard people say this before. I have no idea where they get their info, but it's wrong.

[GaryXD]

When I lived in Illinois I was a Class 3 dealer. That's because in Illinois that's the only way you can own automatic weapons.

For the record, after three years of being a class 3 dealer and 18 years of being a type 01 dealer I NEVER saw an ATF agent.

[Verne]

It is possible but highly unlikely they will show up to look at any or your NFA statused stuff. I do know they will and have seen it but is was back in the mid 80's when my dad had a full auto 9mm Uzi. They showed up once asked to see it and BS with my dad for a while but that was it, heck he might of even known them but they were refered to as the ATF.

[ukerduker]

actually no--I meant my question to mean that as an individual why would you want to go to the trouble of obtaining what I have always called a class III license to own an automatic or a SBR..

or do you actually need a class 3 license to own/buy a select fire/fully auto or SBR?

My impression--and perhaps I am wrong--I always thought that if you owned a class 3 firearm you had to have a special license from the ATF, and that once you had the "license" I always thought they could simply walk up to your door and demand entrance at any time to inspect the weapon or search your home for other class 3 weapons and could do so without a warrant? Am I wrong?

There is no license for an individual. You pay for a NFA stamp. This allows you to possess an SBR or automatic firearm. I own an SRB. I keep a copy of my stamp with the SBR and the original in my safe. I don't worry about a visit from the boys in black.

As I understand, the ATF cannot just walk up and demand you produce your firearm or search your home. They are not permitted entry into your home unless they have a warrant. I would defer this to Joe at Hero Gear. He has a little more knowledge on this topic that I do.

[Jasongar8]

If ATF comes to my house then I will go get whatever NFA item they want. They will NOT come into my house unless they have a warrant. To my knowledge the only people that can ask to see your NFA stuff is 1) ATF, 2) Tax Enforcement Agent because it is a tax paid stamp. As others have stated you just pay to transfer the NFA item from either a dealer to an individual or individual to individual. As to why would I go through the trouble, well for some of us an "AR15" isnt good enough. We want the real thing. Others it is an investment, NFA has done a hell of a lot better than the stock market since 1986. Plus machine guns are just like land, they arnt making any more of them, at least for civilians. Other guys collect historical pieces like Thompsons, BAR's, Lewis Guns, Bren's, Stens, 1919a4's. Some of these guns WERE used in WWI and WWII, Korea, and Vietnam and they just happen to fall under NFA laws. I guess I could ask you why do you want to pay $1500+ for a Sig 556? To each his own, to me its worth "all the trouble I have to go through"....

I have provided some links to help you educate yourself on these types of weapons.

National Firearms Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gun Control Act of 1968 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Firearm Owners Protection Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Guest crotalus01]

No no no. BATFE can not show up at your home and demand to see anything unless you are an SOT FFL operating out of your home. When you buy a title 2 firearm you have to jump through plenty of hoops and pay - either a $200 tax stamp (SBR,SBS, MG, DD, Suppressor) or a $5 tax stamp (AOW). Thats the end of it - your weapon is federally registered (and locally unless you use a trust/llc/corp), but the BATFE could care less after you have gone to all the trouble to possess that weapon legally...

My avatar is my full auto M11 9mm, and if BATFE ever knocked on my door I might show them my tax stamp, but other than that I would tell them to go pound sand (Waco, anyone?)...

[DaveTN]

I don’t have any NFA stuff all I have is a Class 3 FFL. So I doubt the ATF would show up at my house. But if they did: I’m going to invite them into my home, offer them a cup and coffee and maybe make some new friends.

I don’t leave in fear and I certainly don’t fear any Law Enforcement Officer from any agency.

Well okay…. I would just as soon the IRS doesn’t want to talk to me, but other than that.

[BimmerFreak]

Guys,

Part of all this confusion is that people fail to use correct terms when describing licensing and procedures.

Those of you that have C&R FFLs DO NOT have "Class 3 FFLs"

You have a TYPE 3 FFL

"Class 3" is used loosely (and incorrectly) to describe items that fall under and are regulated by the NFA or National Firearms Act of 1934, and the GCA or Gun Control Act of 1968.

Items classified as Type II (SBR,SBS,AOW,Machinegun) normally require a SOT or Special Occupation Tax to deal, manufacture, or transfer them.

Types of Special Occupational Taxpayer:

Class 3 SOT: Dealer of NFA firearms

Class 2 SOT: Manufacturer of NFA firearms

Class 1 SOT: Importer of NFA firearms

Types of FFLs:

Type 1 FFL is a Title 1 dealer or gunsmith

Type 2 FFL is a Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker

Type 3 FFL is a licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms

Type 6 FFL is a licensed maker of ammunition and reloading components other than Armor Piercing ammunition

Type 7 FFL is a Title 1 manufacturer of firearms, ammunition and ammunition components other than NFA, Destructive Devices and Armor Piercing ammunition

Type 8 FFL is an importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition

Type 9 FFL is a dealer in Title 1 firearms including NFA destructive devices, but no other NFA

Type 10 FFL is a manufacturer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, including NFA Destructive Devices but no other NFA, and not including Armor Piercing ammunition

Type 11 FFL is an importer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and NFA Destructive Devices, but no other NFA

Hope that clears things up in regards to licenses.

One more thing; when you as a non-SOT wish to own an item regulated under the NFA, you pay a one time TAX (200.00 or 5.00 depending on item) for each item.

This does not mean you have a "License" but have simply paid the required tax.

Edited May 23, 2009 by BimmerFreak

[dunndw]

What does SOT stand for?

nevermind...Joe took care of it

[Guest Traumaslave]

Why would you want a Type 3 license? Cause you can buy a FA MP5 for ~$3000 or a FA M16 for about the same. If you want one of these w/o a Type 3, you're looking at 4-5x the price for the same. I guess if you have the $$$ to feed FA arms you have the $$$ to maintain the Type 3 license each year cause if you don't, you have to liquidate all dealer samples.

Depending on how many hairs you want to split, and the BATF can and will split them all, YES they can show up to inspect NFA items.

479.22 Right of entry and examination

Any ATF officer or employee of the BATF duly aithorized to perform any function relating to the administration or enforcement of theis part may enter during business hours the premises (including places of storage) of any importer or manufacturer of or dealer in firearms, to examine any books, papers, or records required to be kept pursuant to this part, and any firearms kept by such importer, manufacturer or dealer on such premises, and may require the production of any books, papers, or records necessary to determine any liability for tax under 26 U.S.C Chapter 53, or the observance of said chapter and this part.

My stamp is for a rifle that "I" am "manufacturing" and my SBR is registered to my address. I'm cutting off the fake can to make a SBR. This counts for alot of stamps (SBR) cause really, how many can afford to drop the $$$ for FA firearms? I also am under the gun for having a Type 1 FFL. They can come look at my books any time they want. And I'm sure they will, and they can come on cause my books are kept tighter than my prom date.

[Guest crotalus01]

That may be a loophole for items you "manufacture" like a SBR or SBS, but as a non-FFL I can find nowhere that is says they can inspect my cans, MG, etc that I bought but did not "manufacture". I know they can ask to see the tax stamp, but really why would they come to my home to do that when they have the paperwork right there at their offices in WV?

[RWF]

for me it is easy, stamp = sbr = FUN!