FBI Uses Chainsaw In Raid On Wrong Fitchburg Apartment

[DaveTN]

I can understand how someone could get a house number wrong. But having done these types of raids I don’t know why they would need to know it. We knew the house on sight, we knew the players, who was going to be in the house and who we wanted to immediately control.

We did it in full Police uniform, the same uniform a street patrol Officers wears. We never had an Officer shot during an entry and never had anyone that was confused about who was coming through their door. Gosh, looking backing on that I don’t know how we managed to stay alive not having our patches and badges subdued and not wearing masks.

I understand that sometimes a no-knock warrant is needed. But they should be handled with extreme caution, and only after alternatives have been exhausted. Take the main players when they walk out of the house, and then execute the warrant on the house. Have undercover Officers inside the house when the raid goes down. Be creative.

If I see identifiable uniforms and Officers yelling they are the Police; I’m not going to try to engage them. Dying and putting your family in danger in a hail of gunfire isn’t macho; it’s ignorant.

[ls3_kid]

As ls3 kid said, had it been me it would have ended up very, very bad. Anytime someone is using a chain saw on my door rounds, and I mean LOTS of round will be heading out that door! Chainsaw? Cheese and freaking rice, every agent on scene and every one that signed off on the use of said chainsaw should be fired.

I would imagine using up about every mag I have in my possession shooting at that door with a chainsaw coming through it, as would my room mates. Which would directly result in death.

1. Because there is a chainsaw coming through the door.

2. I am a normal good citizen with nothing more than a few parking and speeding tickets on my record.

3. Chainsaw coming through the door.

Stupid. Just stupid.

[Guest nicemac]

I'm just grateful that this kind of carp at least keeps drugs off the street. It's for the children. That alone justifies our toleration of the few vanishingly rare and microscopically trivial errors which occasionally happen.

I hope this is sarcasm.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Originally Posted by Lester Weevils

I'm just grateful that this kind of carp at least keeps drugs off the street. It's for the children. That alone justifies our toleration of the few vanishingly rare and microscopically trivial errors which occasionally happen.

I hope this is sarcasm.

Hi nicemac

Was in full-steam grumpy codger mode, attempting to pile it on so high that there would be globs falling off the sides and onto the floor. Effort vs success is always variable.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Guest nicemac]

Hi nicemac

Was in full-steam grumpy codger mode, attempting to pile it on so high that there would be globs falling off the sides and onto the floor. Effort vs success is always variable.

I thought so–I must have been less than totally perceptive…

[Guest bkelm18]

I see some comment saying that people would start shooting through the door... shouldn't you wait to identify your target first? Firing blindly through a door isn't exactly a smart idea. I realize you're wanting to defend yourself, but personally I could never bring myself to engage a target until it was identified. Too much liability flying at 1000fps to be wrong. Besides, if they're still sawing through your door, they're not inside and they're not a threat to you yet and I wouldn't think deadly force would be justified.

[TMF]

I see some comment saying that people would start shooting through the door... shouldn't you wait to identify your target first? Firing blindly through a door isn't exactly a smart idea. I realize you're wanting to defend yourself, but personally I could never bring myself to engage a target until it was identified. Too much liability flying at 1000fps to be wrong. Besides, if they're still sawing through your door, they're not inside and they're not a threat to you yet and I wouldn't think deadly force would be justified.

I guess that is something to figure out as somebody is using a gas powered saw to cut through your front door. I imagine that is a profound experience in the middle of the night... can't say that I'd have the ability for calculated thought at that point.

[Guest nicemac]

I see some comment saying that people would start shooting through the door... shouldn't you wait to identify your target first? Firing blindly through a door isn't exactly a smart idea. I realize you're wanting to defend yourself, but personally I could never bring myself to engage a target until it was identified. Too much liability flying at 1000fps to be wrong. Besides, if they're still sawing through your door, they're not inside and they're not a threat to you yet and I wouldn't think deadly force would be justified.

I hear what you are saying, but I a chainsaw through my front door is a really good indication of a threat.

Edited February 2, 2012 by nicemac
typo

[Troutburger]

If she would have been a he, and the dog a full grown pitt; I suspect they would both be dead.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I see some comment saying that people would start shooting through the door... shouldn't you wait to identify your target first? Firing blindly through a door isn't exactly a smart idea. I realize you're wanting to defend yourself, but personally I could never bring myself to engage a target until it was identified. Too much liability flying at 1000fps to be wrong. Besides, if they're still sawing through your door, they're not inside and they're not a threat to you yet and I wouldn't think deadly force would be justified.

Not only that, but if the chainsaw delays entry you have time to load a sack of nails in the black powder cannon! I wuz jest a tryin to stop that thar threat. Twarn't meanin nobody no harm. [joking]

Thinking about no-knock entries-- Add in the entries that knock and enter so quick that the resident could not answer the door even if he was faster than superman-- Those may not be textbook-definition no-knocks, but is it a distinction without a difference?

People seem most upset when bad things happen to innocent residents due to mistakes. But consider maybe some good-ole-boy who occasionally deals weed. According to the law the dude needs to see the inside of a cell. But last I heard dealing weed ain't a capital offense? In the event of a surprise home invasion, then a petty criminal might react about the same as an innocent homeowner? A trip to jail might be what he deserves, rather than a trip to the coroner?

I realize police have to stay safe. Maybe no-knocks are safest for cops if there is no other way to get inside and somebody crazy or desperate is on the other side of the door? Dunno.

But if no-knocks increase the odds of surprise-entry shootouts-- Then perhaps in average situations of criminals likely inclined to surrender if they know its the popo-- Perhaps the no-knocks put police at higher risk? Even if a resident gets shot more often than a cop in these misunderstandings, then each unnecessary time a cop MAY get shot at would have to raise his average risk?

Am wondering-- If the popo do the no-knocks when it is obvious that no-knocks can and do lead to "misunderstanding" shootouts and innocents executed in a hail of bullets-- Does that fit the definition of Reckless Endangerment?

Reckless endangerment is a crime consisting of acts that create a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. The accused person isn't required to intend the resulting or potential harm, but must have acted in a way that showed a disregard for the foreseeable consequences of the actions.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Guest nicemac]

Not only that, but if the chainsaw delays entry you have time to load a sack of nails in the black powder cannon! I wuz jest a tryin to stop that thar threat. Twarn't meanin nobody no harm. [joking]

Thinking about no-knock entries-- Add in the entries that knock and enter so quick that the resident could not answer the door even if he was faster than superman-- Those may not be textbook-definition no-knocks, but is it a distinction without a difference?

People seem most upset when bad things happen to innocent residents due to mistakes. But consider maybe some good-ole-boy who occasionally deals weed. According to the law the dude needs to see the inside of a cell. But last I heard dealing weed ain't a capital offense? In the event of an surprise home invasion, a petty criminal might react about the same as an innocent homeowner? A trip to jail might be what he deserves, rather than a trip to the coroner?

I realize police have to stay safe. Maybe no-knocks are safest for cops if there is no other way to get inside and somebody crazy or desperate is on the other side of the door? Dunno.

But if no-knocks increase the odds of surprise-entry shootouts-- Then perhaps in average situations, with criminals likely inclined to surrender if they know its the popo-- Perhaps the no-knocks put police at higher risk? Even if a resident gets shot more often than a cop in these misunderstandings, then each unnecessary time a cop MAY get shot at would have to raise his average risk?

Am wondering-- If the popo do the no-knocks when it is obvious that no-knocks can and do lead to "misunderstanding" shootouts and innocents executed in a hail of bullets-- Does that fit the definition of Reckless Endangerment?

De-criminalize drug possession and a lot of this just goes away…

[Guest Lester Weevils]

De-criminalize drug possession and a lot of this just goes away…

Ba-da-bing! Give the man a cigar!

[RobertNashville]

These no knock warrants need to stop and need to stop NOW by all law enforcement.

Risks to innocent people are too high and the rewards to LE are too low to justify doing this.

[ls3_kid]

I see some comment saying that people would start shooting through the door... shouldn't you wait to identify your target first? Firing blindly through a door isn't exactly a smart idea. I realize you're wanting to defend yourself, but personally I could never bring myself to engage a target until it was identified. Too much liability flying at 1000fps to be wrong. Besides, if they're still sawing through your door, they're not inside and they're not a threat to you yet and I wouldn't think deadly force would be justified.

Being an innocent civilian and being a chainsaw coming through my door would be considered a threat. Just like somebody throwing a brick through my window. Now with that said I would not just randomly shoot out the window after a brick being thrown. That you have time to get ready in your home, call the cops, etc. However chainsaw they are coming in now!

Beating the dead horse here. How do get chainsaw entrance approved? That is some Grand Theft Auto stuff...

[Guest NYCrulesU]

Being an innocent civilian and being a chainsaw coming through my door would be considered a threat. Just like somebody throwing a brick through my window. Now with that said I would not just randomly shoot out the window after a brick being thrown. That you have time to get ready in your home, call the cops, etc. However chainsaw they are coming in now!

Beating the dead horse here. How do get chainsaw entrance approved? That is some Grand Theft Auto stuff...

Careful though. If someone is coming through your door with a chainsaw, make sure you only shoot to "stop" the threat.....God forbid you shoot to kill and be considered a murderer. :rolls eyes:

[ls3_kid]

Careful though. If someone is coming through your door with a chainsaw, make sure you only shoot to "stop" the threat.....God forbid you shoot to kill and be considered a murderer. :rolls eyes:

Hell it could be one of my drunk college buddies looking for a place to stay, so I should wait to see his/her face.

[Garufa]

So when the police destroy someone's front door with a no-knock warrant who is responsible for the damages? After they haul you off do they just leave the front door open (or missing) so your place can be ransacked by thieves?

[ls3_kid]

So when the police destroy someone's front door with a no-knock warrant who is responsible for the damages? After they haul you off do they just leave the front door open (or missing) so your place can be ransacked by thieves?

I mean I wouldn't worry about it if they actually got the right criminal (which most of the time they do).

[Garufa]

I'm not particularly worried about it, just curious.

[ls3_kid]

I'm not particularly worried about it, just curious.

Maybe just the police line, do not cross? lol

[DaveTN]

.

[Sidinman]

So when the police destroy someone's front door with a no-knock warrant who is responsible for the damages? After they haul you off do they just leave the front door open (or missing) so your place can be ransacked by thieves?

So what if this is rental property and not the perp's.

On another note when I read chainsaw on the door it, it made me think of Jerry Clower's, Marcel Ledbeter.

[G27]

IMO, whether the person is guilty of a crime or not, the police should repair / replace anything they damage.

[Sidinman]

But they never do.

[Slpeod]

I see some comment saying that people would start shooting through the door... shouldn't you wait to identify your target first? Firing blindly through a door isn't exactly a smart idea. I realize you're wanting to defend yourself, but personally I could never bring myself to engage a target until it was identified. Too much liability flying at 1000fps to be wrong. Besides, if they're still sawing through your door, they're not inside and they're not a threat to you yet and I wouldn't think deadly force would be justified.

It comes down to how we are all wired differently and your response to the given situation. Experience, situations and environments play a large role any time you release rounds and we own them wherever they come to rest. A "Smart idea" though would be to end the invasion as rapidly as possible within the limits of the law while you still have the advantage and ability to do so. You can wait if you want but I would venture to say they aren't using a tool like that to just come in and relieve you innocently of your belongings.

Myself, I perceive that to be a threat to the life of myself and my family. Precedences have been set in varying degrees depending on the venue, Google "home invader shot through door".

Interesting site about all the casualties of No Knocks and the like gone wrong, John Adams of Lebanon, TN is the first entry. http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/drug-war-victim/

Edited February 3, 2012 by Slpeod