Man Who Carried AK-47 Pistol In Park Loses Appeal

[Jonnin]

yea that sounds correct. So the TC/14 is not illegal, you just cannot carry it on a handgun permit in TN, then?

Amusing that bigger, easier to see guns get so much attention. I still say people need to spend a LOT more time worrying about the ones you can't see...

[nightrunner]

Its all about public perception

[MikePapa1]

Hence why walking about parks in camo with a pistol slung across your chest is a bad idea.

[tnhawk]

Hence why walking about parks in camo with a pistol slung across your chest is a bad idea.

His behavior accomplished the first part of his goals. He did gain the attention he was seeking, but was it worth the price?

[tnhawk]

Hence why walking about parks in camo with a pistol slung across your chest is a bad idea.

He did accomplish teh first part of his goals. he got the attention he was seeking, but it was a high price to pay for it.

Edited September 6, 2012 by tnhawk

[strickj]

Umm, I used to be a police officer, and I know quite well what they are known for doing. I've known good cops and bad cops, unfortunately, and known way too many of the latter than the former, and I've seen way too much corruption by the cops, judges, and prosecutors in city courts both here and in Missouri. There are reasons why there's case laws against entrapment, and it wasn't because the judges did it for the Sh!ts and giggles of it.

Entrapment? Did the cops give him the gun and induce his actions?

[bubbiesdad]

actually I do have a problem with the LEO arresting him at gunpoint. That is over the top an given they had already questioned him once without a violent reaction and that he had been there peacably for some time without harming anyone or threatening anyone, it was a poor move by the LEO.

Also, it is sad that the officers cannot tell a handgun from a rifle. Perhaps the laws are too convoluted and confusing? Worse, they were unable to tell a pistol from a machine gun (assault rifle). That speaks of volumes of ignorance.

I approve of them stopping him to verify the permit and legality, but it should have been a 5 min delay: got a permit? Ok, let me see that, its a pistol? Ok, have a nice day.

Yeah your right, it's obvious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N5wGAGsXKs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmPkqZHALTs

Edited September 6, 2012 by bubbiesdad

[bubbiesdad]

Which is what the party counted upon occurring. From the other side, however, the police will do whatever they can to trick someone into breaking the law without being downright obvious, (RADAR traps are an example), so why is it ok for them to do so but not this party?

Off topic I know, but how did the police trick him? And how are you "tricked" into speeding?

[Jonnin]

It is obvious to anyone who knows the law. It is not obvious to sheep who know nothing about guns, but here again a LEO is not a sheep. A LEO sees a short shotgun, he gets out a stick and does a pass/fail on its legality. A LEO sees a pistol that is a little big, and it takes a full squad to figure it out. This is not good. Give the man a dowel rod cut to 12 inches, if it sticks out the barrel, and the gun does not have a stock but a pistol grip, odds are you have a pistol --- then check for a permit, if the guy has one, move on. If it bothers sheep, so be it: those are the same idiots who would call the cops on an openly carried glock too, you can't cater to those sorts of people or no one would ever have a gun.

[bubbiesdad]

It is obvious to anyone who knows the law. It is not obvious to sheep who know nothing about guns, but here again a LEO is not a sheep. A LEO sees a short shotgun, he gets out a stick and does a pass/fail on its legality. A LEO sees a pistol that is a little big, and it takes a full squad to figure it out. This is not good. Give the man a dowel rod cut to 12 inches, if it sticks out the barrel, and the gun does not have a stock but a pistol grip, odds are you have a pistol --- then check for a permit, if the guy has one, move on. If it bothers sheep, so be it: those are the same idiots who would call the cops on an openly carried glock too, you can't cater to those sorts of people or no one would ever have a gun.

Since it is a pistol, where was his holster? And there is a stock right in front of the magazine.

There is a big difference between carrying a cut of rifle in your hand, (with the barrel tip painted orange), and carrying a Glock in a holster on your hip.

But then he was looking for trouble, and squealed when he found it.

Edited September 6, 2012 by bubbiesdad

[Guest MilitiaMan]

It is obvious to anyone who knows the law. It is not obvious to sheep who know nothing about guns, but here again a LEO is not a sheep. A LEO sees a short shotgun, he gets out a stick and does a pass/fail on its legality. A LEO sees a pistol that is a little big, and it takes a full squad to figure it out. This is not good. Give the man a dowel rod cut to 12 inches, if it sticks out the barrel, and the gun does not have a stock but a pistol grip, odds are you have a pistol --- then check for a permit, if the guy has one, move on. If it bothers sheep, so be it: those are the same idiots who would call the cops on an openly carried glock too, you can't cater to those sorts of people or no one would ever have a gun.

OC'ing a Glock and OC'ing an AK "pistol" is quite a difference. Then there's the whole painting the tip orange to try and pass it off as airsoft.

On this or any other forum, I am still shocked when I read of anyone arguing for or defending the actions of L.E. The guy is off his rocker and nothing more than an attention seeker.

[Jonnin]

OC'ing a Glock and OC'ing an AK "pistol" is quite a difference. Then there's the whole painting the tip orange to try and pass it off as airsoft.

On this or any other forum, I am still shocked when I read of anyone arguing for or defending the actions of L.E. The guy is off his rocker and nothing more than an attention seeker.

DO NOT TAKE MY COMMENT AS A DEFENSE OF LE!

I agree with the general opinion here, that he is after money with the lawsuits, is a harm to gun owners, and his attitude brings much of his troubles upon himself.

I still do not agree that he needed to be arrested at gunpoint for OC of a pistol.

Last time I checked, while it is REQUIRED in some states (like GA) to have a holster, TN is not one of those states. So the "where is the holster" question is a side note. People can and have made some really stupid looking holsters for these things, also a side note. I do not know if LE has such a contraption.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in the glock or the AK pistol. A pistol is a pistol is a pistol. In the eyes of the law they are the SAME.

Painting it orange is another issue. I personally feel that should be illegal, but at the time he did this, it was not against the law.

Anyway, I would appreciate it if you could seperate my comments from LE: I do not approve of his methods or attitude, I think he is looking for trouble and lump him in with the anti-abortion dead baby posters crowd. I still say the situation could have been better handled by the LEOS, specifically no reason to point a gun at LE (he has yet to draw or even touch his weapon in any of his many incidents, to my knowledge, unless I missed one?) and no reason to not be able to rapidly classify the weapon. That is not a defense of LE's actions at all.

[TMF]

I'm not a pants wetting liberal that is scared of guns, but if I see someone walking around with an AK strapped to their chest in a public park I'm calling the cops. That simple.

[nightrunner]

This thread has gotten a little confusing as some people are using LE to refer to a certain unnamed person and LE is a common abbrevation for law enforcement. Just an observation.

[bubbiesdad]

DO NOT TAKE MY COMMENT AS A DEFENSE OF LE!

I agree with the general opinion here, that he is after money with the lawsuits, is a harm to gun owners, and his attitude brings much of his troubles upon himself.

I still do not agree that he needed to be arrested at gunpoint for OC of a pistol.

Last time I checked, while it is REQUIRED in some states (like GA) to have a holster, TN is not one of those states. So the "where is the holster" question is a side note. People can and have made some really stupid looking holsters for these things, also a side note. I do not know if LE has such a contraption.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in the glock or the AK pistol. A pistol is a pistol is a pistol. In the eyes of the law they are the SAME.

Painting it orange is another issue. I personally feel that should be illegal, but at the time he did this, it was not against the law.

Anyway, I would appreciate it if you could seperate my comments from LE: I do not approve of his methods or attitude, I think he is looking for trouble and lump him in with the anti-abortion dead baby posters crowd. I still say the situation could have been better handled by the LEOS, specifically no reason to point a gun at LE (he has yet to draw or even touch his weapon in any of his many incidents, to my knowledge, unless I missed one?) and no reason to not be able to rapidly classify the weapon. That is not a defense of LE's actions at all.

Well, there was the time he who shall not be named was carrying his Colt Navy replica, up and down the street, just out for some "fishing". Lenny has blocked me from commenting on his videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMP-KK8QnVI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43rbjjZ0nUw&feature=relmfu

Edited September 6, 2012 by bubbiesdad

[bubbiesdad]

DO NOT TAKE MY COMMENT AS A DEFENSE OF LE!

I agree with the general opinion here, that he is after money with the lawsuits, is a harm to gun owners, and his attitude brings much of his troubles upon himself.

I still do not agree that he needed to be arrested at gunpoint for OC of a pistol.

Last time I checked, while it is REQUIRED in some states (like GA) to have a holster, TN is not one of those states. So the "where is the holster" question is a side note. People can and have made some really stupid looking holsters for these things, also a side note. I do not know if LE has such a contraption.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in the glock or the AK pistol. A pistol is a pistol is a pistol. In the eyes of the law they are the SAME.

Painting it orange is another issue. I personally feel that should be illegal, but at the time he did this, it was not against the law.

Anyway, I would appreciate it if you could seperate my comments from LE: I do not approve of his methods or attitude, I think he is looking for trouble and lump him in with the anti-abortion dead baby posters crowd. I still say the situation could have been better handled by the LEOS, specifically no reason to point a gun at LE (he has yet to draw or even touch his weapon in any of his many incidents, to my knowledge, unless I missed one?) and no reason to not be able to rapidly classify the weapon. That is not a defense of LE's actions at all.

That explains a lot about your posts.

[JayC]

It is obvious to anyone who knows the law. It is not obvious to sheep who know nothing about guns, but here again a LEO is not a sheep. A LEO sees a short shotgun, he gets out a stick and does a pass/fail on its legality. A LEO sees a pistol that is a little big, and it takes a full squad to figure it out. This is not good. Give the man a dowel rod cut to 12 inches, if it sticks out the barrel, and the gun does not have a stock but a pistol grip, odds are you have a pistol --- then check for a permit, if the guy has one, move on. If it bothers sheep, so be it: those are the same idiots who would call the cops on an openly carried glock too, you can't cater to those sorts of people or no one would ever have a gun.

Or how about you get the guys information... And if it turns out he was breaking the law go pick him up at home?

You don't need to hold somebody for two or three hours on a possible technical violation which would end up being a small fine anyhow... You have the model/serial number of the firearm, and the information off a known good HCP... Is he really going to be that hard to track down if you let him go?

[bubbiesdad]

You guys know this Radnor Lake Rambo? I have been to Radnor Lake many times. It's a nice little city park. I think he was trolling for attention. Maybe he wasn't hugged enough as a kid.

Or maybe he was hugged too much, by the wrong people.

[bubbiesdad]

It is obvious to anyone who knows the law. It is not obvious to sheep who know nothing about guns, but here again a LEO is not a sheep. A LEO sees a short shotgun, he gets out a stick and does a pass/fail on its legality. A LEO sees a pistol that is a little big, and it takes a full squad to figure it out. This is not good. Give the man a dowel rod cut to 12 inches, if it sticks out the barrel, and the gun does not have a stock but a pistol grip, odds are you have a pistol --- then check for a permit, if the guy has one, move on. If it bothers sheep, so be it: those are the same idiots who would call the cops on an openly carried glock too, you can't cater to those sorts of people or no one would ever have a gun.

Or asks to see the AOW license.

Unfortunately, things aren't that simple in his world, nor does he want them to be.

[E4 No More]

Off topic I know, but how did the police trick him? And how are you "tricked" into speeding?

I wasn't referring to numb-nuts. Don't know anyone got that from my post.

[MikePapa1]

It is obvious to anyone who knows the law. It is not obvious to sheep who know nothing about guns, but here again a LEO is not a sheep. A LEO sees a short shotgun, he gets out a stick and does a pass/fail on its legality. A LEO sees a pistol that is a little big, and it takes a full squad to figure it out. This is not good. Give the man a dowel rod cut to 12 inches, if it sticks out the barrel, and the gun does not have a stock but a pistol grip, odds are you have a pistol --- then check for a permit, if the guy has one, move on. If it bothers sheep, so be it: those are the same idiots who would call the cops on an openly carried glock too, you can't cater to those sorts of people or no one would ever have a gun.

Again, the Court found most of the delay in his detention was caused by his DEMAND to see a supervisor. By the way, is a law enforcement officer required to recognize every single possible firearm on sight? My guess is they'd NEVER seen one before. Unless you are in to weird firearms, I'm not really sure why you would have. It might take more than a stick to determine whether the Draco is a pistol, a SBR or a submachine gun, particularly if you'd never seen one. He did this so he'd have a reason to sue the taxpayers to try to get money, so bad mouthing the police here, who appear to me to have been fully professional, is more than a bit misguided. He was in the woods in camo scaring people for the sole purpose of getting the attention he did. I have no sympathy whatever for him nor any complaints about his treatment.

[MikePapa1]

Or how about you get the guys information... And if it turns out he was breaking the law go pick him up at home?

You don't need to hold somebody for two or three hours on a possible technical violation which would end up being a small fine anyhow... You have the model/serial number of the firearm, and the information off a known good HCP... Is he really going to be that hard to track down if you let him go?

And who would get sued, if haviung stopped him, not determined its legality, releasing him and he shoots up a McDonalds. Cops have to live in the real world.

[Jonnin]

Again, the Court found most of the delay in his detention was caused by his DEMAND to see a supervisor. By the way, is a law enforcement officer required to recognize every single possible firearm on sight? My guess is they'd NEVER seen one before. Unless you are in to weird firearms, I'm not really sure why you would have. It might take more than a stick to determine whether the Draco is a pistol, a SBR or a submachine gun, particularly if you'd never seen one. He did this so he'd have a reason to sue the taxpayers to try to get money, so bad mouthing the police here, who appear to me to have been fully professional, is more than a bit misguided. He was in the woods in camo scaring people for the sole purpose of getting the attention he did. I have no sympathy whatever for him nor any complaints about his treatment.

I am not trying to bad mouth anyone. But I still fail to see how a drawn gun was required to deal with someone who had already been checked out once and who had cooperated fully the first time around and was not doing anything actively threatening (or the report had no reason given for this). If that is the accepted and professional way to handle a HCP check, I have to be concerned.

I do expect LEOs to know OF the class of weapon and be able to ID it and classify it via the internet in just a few moments, yes. However, the convoluted SBR rules do make this an issue.... the laws need to be simplified badly.

edit: from the pdf the stuff that concerns me:

1)

Embody’s appearance at the park prompted two encounters with park rangers.

In the first, Ranger Joshua Walsh approached Embody, asked for his permit and

questioned him about the gun. Embody produced a valid permit, but Walsh could not

tell whether the firearm qualified as a legal one under state law. “Technically it’s a

handgun,†he told Embody, “but I don’t know why you need it out here,

^^^^^^^^^^ Why would you NEED any handgun at any time? Its the old gun control logic. He was exercising his right to be stupid, and that is perfectly legal.

and this gem

Chief Ranger Shane Petty, who did not believe the AK-47 was a handgun

given the description of it. Petty and Ward determined that Ward should undertake a

“felony take down†of Embody, disarm him and check the weapon.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WHAT? Do a felony takedown of the guy for what reason? This is seriously an issue, as the decision was made at random and AFTER the first guy decided it was a handgun, then waffled on it.

Those both cause me some concern. I can see I am in the minority here, though, so I will stop here.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Jonnin

[TMF]

Okay, I'm going to strap a bunch of road flares to m chest and walk into a bank. Then I'll cry that my "rights" we're violated when I get detained. If someone could please find me a law which states that I can't do that I would appreciate it, because as far as I can tell it is my "right" to do so.

Give me a damn break! The cops did a good job. I don't care if what he did was legal or not. He was trying to incite panic. It might be classified as a pistol, but it is a damn AK. I can't think of a good reason why someone would be carrying that around unless they were at a range or in a combat zone. And saying that my logic is the same argument against handgun carry is just silly. There are many good reasons I can assume someone is carrying a pistol. I can't think of a good reason why someone would be carrying around an AK. That would make me think they were up to no good. Would you honestly not raise an eyebrow if someone came into a restaurant with an AK slung to their chest?? Would you look at the barrel length and say "oh, it's only 10 inches so all is well"??? I would immediately assume he is there to shoot up the place, because I can think of no practical reason why someone would do that. Mind you, I am not scared of folks carting firearms. I have been frequently surrounded by third world former al Qaeda infidel haters who were armed with a lot more than a Draco. The point here is context.

[Will Carry]

My take on the Radnor Rambo is that he did not take that "pistol" to the park to have a picnic with it. He took it to get a response from the public and law enforcement. He was trolling for attention. Was he legally right or morally wrong? That's open for debate. Is what he did good for the gun owning public? No.

It makes non-gun owners afraid. You go to a park with your wife and young children and their is the crazy man walking around in camo with that THING strapped under his arm? He's doing more for the anti-gun people than you can ever imagine.

"Look Buffy! There is a crazy man with a gun! We need to outlaw those things."

"You mean we need to outlaw crazy people?"

"No Lovey, those guns."

Edited September 7, 2012 by Will Carry