AR15. 400 yard targets. Irons or red dots?

[vujade]

For semi-long distance shooting (200-400 yards), do you shoot more accurately/precisely with traditional iron sights (ghost rings) or a red dot like an Eotech (1 moa dot)?

 

This is for an AR where I don't want to have a magnification optic but want to hit as accurately/precisely as possible out up to 400 yards.

 

What are some 'normal' groups your AR have delivered using an red dot (aimpoint, eotech, etc.) assuming good ammo and good shooting technique?

 

 

 

[Spots]

I shot better with irons at distance in the USMC, than I did when we switched to ACOG's. I prefer the small aperture rear sight setting on the M16A2's for distance work.

[Jonnin]

I would say irons for a younger person.  If you are older, red dot.  Has to do with the eye problems that come about in the 40s, red dots neutralize them somewhat.

[mmirob]

Accuracy diminishes at 200yds without optics.  400yds is a real challenge for most people without at least 4X optics.  Red dots are fun and convenient and upper end types are available with flip over magnifiers.  Best of both worlds if you can afford it IMHO.  Keep in mind the AR (standard) is an accurate battle rifle not a sniper rifle.  Military ranges are set up with max 300yd pop down targets.  Not always easy to hit as target gets covered by sight post.  Zombies and vampire shots usually within 50 yards...been watching too much walking dead , I know.

[KaNaPaPi]

"Most" red dots at that distance are not very effective.  A 4 MOA dot at 400 yards is almost the width of a silouhette.  Irons tend to wash out less at distance.  (others will disagree with me).  However, I think Leupold makes a 1 MOA reddot sight....that one might prove me wrong.  I don't want to pay for it.

[TripleDigitRide]

I recently picked up a Vortex StrikeFire, and with the 2x screw-in magnifier, I was able to hit a steel target at 300 +/- yards on a pretty consistent basis. I don't think my eyes would allow me to do that without the 2x magifier.

[Troutburger]

I can ring the 200 yd steel with my eotech 10 for 10, but I don't think I could past that. At 300 don't think I could even see the target past the dot.

[vujade]

Thank you for the comments guys. 

 

I have an Eotech on an AR. It's got the 65 MOA big circle with a very nice 1 MOA center dot.  I think it'll be great for close in work but I LOVE shooting far and shooting tiny groups.  I may be trying to force this rifle into a role it is not (another reason to buy an AR with a floating bull barrel and magnification optics?!?).

 

Until then... if this is what I have (and I don't want to take the boltie out), would you say I'll get tighter groups with just irons then (that sounds right according to Jonnin;thank you for the reply).  I imagine, you can better estimate where that tiny target is in the middle of the front sight post in the middle of the tiny rear aperture vs. a red dot essentially covering the target.

 

I'll think about that flip up magnifer.  I have a back up rear/fold-down sight - I kind off want to keep it and as much as possible, keep the rifle somewhat light.  (i took off some of the tacti-stuff like flashlight/forward grip already).

 

I guess the best way is to test it. I have another post in the reloading/ammo section.  Once I build up the load, I'll do some accuracy testing with irons vs red dot) and then report back!

Edited March 17, 2013 by vujade

[DMark]

I always do a lower 1/3 co-witness of my BUIS using any red-dot (Aimpoint, EOTech) and my rear sight is always in the up position. 

 

Anything out past 300-400 yards - - - I seem to revert to the irons.

 

Maybe its because of the way I started...., shooting iron sights at the 600 yard line might just be in my shooting DNA.

 

     

[Oh Shoot]

....

You do a lot of mag dumps with no heat shield in that handguard? ;)

- OS

[DMark]

You do a lot of mag dumps with no heat shield in that handguard? ;)

- OS

 

No need for a heat shield when you have a full length free float tube under the hand guards.

 

Beside - - - Who needs a mag dump when you can shoot MOA at 600 yards. 

 

But Trust me...., my "Work" and "Social" ARs can handle the heat.  :tough:  

Edited March 21, 2013 by DMark

[vujade]

I always do a lower 1/3 co-witness of my BUIS using any red-dot (Aimpoint, EOTech) and my rear sight is always in the up position. 

 

Anything out past 300-400 yards - - - I seem to revert to the irons.

 

Maybe its because of the way I started...., shooting iron sights at the 600 yard line might just be in my shooting DNA.

 

Ok. I'm going to stop complaining about not being able to see anything.  Points for you - 600 yards with iron sights!  wow!

[vujade]

I had to google "1/3 co witness" and now I get it. 

 

Right now, it's set up for 'absolute co-witness'  I like the idea of it being 2 separate aiming points. 

 

Do you get an attachment to the rail/eotech to 'raise it up'?

[DMark]

Do you get an attachment to the rail/eotech to 'raise it up'?

 

I'm running Aimpoints on my "work" ARs right now.  The standard M68 Close Combat Optic mount gives me a 1/3 co-witness.

 

For the EOTech you will need a raiser in order to get the 1/3 co-witness.  If you are thinking about getting a magnifying optic to support your EOTech (which sounds like a good solution to your original question), several makers have those.  I've been running America Defense Manufacturing (ADM) mounts on my 3Guns when using a 1X4 optic.  I've been real happy with their stuff. 

 

Here is one that might fit your needs and it also takes into account an added optic behind the EOTech.

 

http://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/view/product/67/

 

BTW, which EOTech are you using?

[Schadenfreude]

If you have astigmatism rear sight up front sight down can help sharpen up the dot & the target but you need absolute co- witness for it to work

[Oh Shoot]

No need for a heat shield when you have a full length free float tube under the hand guards.

 

Beside - - - Who needs a mag dump when you can shoot MOA at 600 yards. 

 

But Trust me...., my "Work" and "Social" ARs can handle the heat.  :tough:  

 

It was a little (failed)  jokie poo about what appears to be an insulated glove thang on your support hand?

 

- OS

Edited March 22, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[DMark]

 jokie poo about what appears to be an insulated glove thang on your support hand?

 

Its a padded glove for slinging in hard during High Power Rifle matches.

 

 

BTW that is Champion's Choice glove from right here in LaVergne, TN.

 

http://www.champchoice.com/contact.aspx

[Alleycat72]

I love a 1 x 4 or a 2 x 7 for what you're doing.

 

 http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-pst-1-4x24-riflescope-with-tmcq-moa-reticle/reticle

[vujade]

I'm running Aimpoints on my "work" ARs right now.  The standard M68 Close Combat Optic mount gives me a 1/3 co-witness.

 

For the EOTech you will need a raiser in order to get the 1/3 co-witness.  If you are thinking about getting a magnifying optic to support your EOTech (which sounds like a good solution to your original question), several makers have those.  I've been running America Defense Manufacturing (ADM) mounts on my 3Guns when using a 1X4 optic.  I've been real happy with their stuff. 

 

Here is one that might fit your needs and it also takes into account an added optic behind the EOTech.

 

http://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/view/product/67/

 

BTW, which EOTech are you using?

 

I'm using the eotech 522a65. 

[vujade]

If you have astigmatism rear sight up front sight down can help sharpen up the dot & the target but you need absolute co- witness for it to work

 

unfortunately, the front sight is fixed.

[AdotOdot4]

I have not shot with a 1MOA red dot, but I much prefer irons over my Vortex's 2MOA dot at anything over 200 yards.

[DMark]

I'm using the eotech 522a65. 

 

The EOTech G33 magnifier would be the one to have.  Of course the Cost of that Cool isn't cheap. 

 

However, you can save some money by looking at the stuff that Primary Arms offers.

 

https://www.primaryarms.com/Red_Dot_Magnifiers_s/910.htm

[Kopis]

God my eyes must suck. Love my sightron for distance shooting but I can only hit 400 yards with my AR and pmc 55gr s at my 8" hardened steel targets.

[Chadastrophic]

This is setup for 1/3 cowitness.



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