What we're up against - the anti crowd

[S&WForty]

I thought I'd share an experience I had about two weeks ago. I haven't had a chance to type it up until now. While eating lunch, a co-worker that knows my position on guns asked me what are the laws on carrying in a restaurant. Given all the recent hoopla over the law change for places that serve alcohol, I thought that was what he was talking about. It wasn't. As I started to answer him, I realized he meant ANY restaurant.

Also very important is to understand he is a conservative-minded person and grew up on a farm around firearms.

He asked because a few nights prior, while eating at a pizza restaurant, two men sat across from him with their guns exposed. My other co-worker from MS immediately said, "Oh, they must have been police if you saw their guns like that." I said, "Nope, my permit allows me to conceal or open carry." My MS friend was surprised (he has a MS permit), and the co-worker that started the converation immediately got POed. Once he realized they were likely not cops, he went off. *All* he could harp on was "what happens if one of them trying to shoot a robber kills my wife or baby???" He clearly was not concerned about the weapons' mere presence. He was going after the use of the weapon in the very situation our permits were created for.

He got so irrate that he said he is going to start looking for signs in restaurants, and "any restaurant that doesn't have a sign banning guns will no longer get my business, and I will make sure the owner knows."

It was quite odd feeling "attacked" by not only a friend, but one that has shared many a conservative-leaning joke with me. It felt like a slap in the face. It was amazing how in the name of saving his wife and baby from a permit holder's stray bullet, he became so condescending. He could really make a good liberal...

One, I just had to share to show all what we're up against - it's not just all-out liberals that are anti-gun. Two, to those that support OC and have proudly said, "nobody even noticed or cared I had this ____ on my hip," it was two OCers that got my co-worker riled up. He kept his mouth shut and waited to ask me were they legal or not, then he blew up.

I wasn't going to argue. I just let him spew. After giving it some thought, I think if he brings it up again, I'll ask him to look up statistics on getting shot by a law-abiding permit holder's stray bullet vs. getting killed in his car while traveling to the restaurant of choice... After I realized that comparison, I thought, "it's like the saying goes, swallow an elephant, but choke on a gnat."

[eapking]

Too bad you got such a surprise. You can't talk with sense to these people, they get emotional right away and logic disappears from their mouths. If they thought logically they would not have the opinions they do. Good luck with this person.

[Wingshooter]

I thought I'd share an experience I had about two weeks ago. I haven't had a chance to type it up until now. While eating lunch, a co-worker that knows my position on guns asked me what are the laws on carrying in a restaurant. Given all the recent hoopla over the law change for places that serve alcohol, I thought that was what he was talking about. It wasn't. As I started to answer him, I realized he meant ANY restaurant.

Also very important is to understand he is a conservative-minded person and grew up on a farm around firearms.

He asked because a few nights prior, while eating at a pizza restaurant, two men sat across from him with their guns exposed. My other co-worker from MS immediately said, "Oh, they must have been police if you saw their guns like that." I said, "Nope, my permit allows me to conceal or open carry." My MS friend was surprised (he has a MS permit), and the co-worker that started the converation immediately got POed. Once he realized they were likely not cops, he went off. *All* he could harp on was "what happens if one of them trying to shoot a robber kills my wife or baby???" He clearly was not concerned about the weapons' mere presence. He was going after the use of the weapon in the very situation our permits were created for.

He got so irrate that he said he is going to start looking for signs in restaurants, and "any restaurant that doesn't have a sign banning guns will no longer get my business, and I will make sure the owner knows."

It was quite odd feeling "attacked" by not only a friend, but one that has shared many a conservative-leaning joke with me. It felt like a slap in the face. It was amazing how in the name of saving his wife and baby from a permit holder's stray bullet, he became so condescending. He could really make a good liberal...

One, I just had to share to show all what we're up against - it's not just all-out liberals that are anti-gun. Two, to those that support OC and have proudly said, "nobody even noticed or cared I had this ____ on my hip," it was two OCers that got my co-worker riled up. He kept his mouth shut and waited to ask me were they legal or not, then he blew up.

I wasn't going to argue. I just let him spew. After giving it some thought, I think if he brings it up again, I'll ask him to look up statistics on getting shot by a law-abiding permit holder's stray bullet vs. getting killed in his car while traveling to the restaurant of choice... After I realized that comparison, I thought, "it's like the saying goes, swallow an elephant, but choke on a gnat."

It's frustrating, I know.

Appearently he would rather the robber's stray bullet kill his wife or child. Sounds like he has the misconception that the HCP will try to stop any robbery (like a cop). I wish these anti's could understand that the HCP should only draw a gun to save a life (or limb ), not intervene in a robbery.

[Guest TurboniumOxide]

.

Edited July 14, 2009 by TurboniumOxide

[S&WForty]

He needs to carry and be the first to take down the bad guys if he is so worried about his family, he is falling down on his responsibilities. People OCing (or CCing) make me feel all cozy and warm inside, those are my kind of people. They will be your best friends if the SHTF.

You have a very good point. Mr. Sheeple is indeed falling down on his job. One more counter point I'll have in my arsenal.

It's frustrating, I know.

Appearently he would rather the robber's stray bullet kill his wife or child. Sounds like he has the misconception that the HCP will try to stop any robbery (like a cop). I wish these anti's could understand that the HCP should only draw a gun to save a life (or limb ), not intervene in a robbery.

I tried to tell him that. He's just bent on (all) permit holder's being a throwback to the wild west. No, we're not lookin' fer a gunfight pardner...

[Guest tnvolfan]

I understand that we as permit holders have the right to openly carry our firearms, but you know, it's just asking for trouble. Most people who blow up like your friend simply don't have all the facts. Your friend will probably not take the time to find the stats that you talked about. The best thing you could do is get them yourself and have them ready. I'm ashamed to say I don't know the exact stats right now, I just know they lean very heavily in our favor. Even though I carry a gun, if I saw a couple of dudes carrying openly like that, it would make me extremely nervous and I wouldn't have a good time eating there. I would be worrying the entire time as to why they were so blazenly open about it. The time for a gun like that is for a defensive posture -- wear it openly and you'll be the first that the bad guy takes out when he makes his hit (if he is stupid enough to do that.) It's a frustrating set of circumstances for permit holders right now. If we make restaurant owners mad, we are creating more trouble for ourselves and perhaps limiting our options for the future.

[Guest BillOfRightsFan]

His argument is broken in a few ways.

First, as was noted, he seems more concerned with a law abiding citizen's bullet than a robbers.

Second, what is the difference between his wife or baby and S&WForty? S&WForty is bigger than the baby (I assume... it could be a big baby or S&WForty may be of very small stature) but odds are the bigger target will take the bullet. The reason he mentioned them and not himself or his friend is that he is emotionally tied to them and thus his reasoning is based not upon logic but emotion.

He is obviously not aware that of the 2.45 million violent crimes prevented each year, 99% are done so without a shot being fired.

Back to the robbery scenario. Assuming the friendly guns were not present, would he then be defending his wife and baby from the robber's bullets with his bare hands? I am pretty certain that would go against him. Odds are against success. Perhaps he is hoping that if he allows the victimization he'll get away and just chalk it up to a bad experience. However again the data is against him. There are over 7 murders per 1000 gun robbieries vs. almost 3 for non-gun robberies.

You weren't being attacked. Your friend was giving a different opinion. While we disagree with it, we must not judge this person. They are simply acting on emotion and out of ignorance. Once you get past the emotion and look at the numbers it becomes quite clear what makes sense and what does not. Once you are past the emotion everything becomes clearer.

[Fallguy]

It is just so hard for me to understand how he, or anyone, thought it was fine if they were LEOs, but if they were not... panic and horror. Also the upset just because he saw them as opposed had he not.

Something else that even confuses me more, is fellow HCP holders that regularly carry, being uncomfortable when seeing someone else with a handgun.

Anyway...funny how we was ok at first, then did such a 180.

[Guest justme]

I thought I'd share an experience I had about two weeks ago. I haven't had a chance to type it up until now. While eating lunch, a co-worker that knows my position on guns asked me what are the laws on carrying in a restaurant. Given all the recent hoopla over the law change for places that serve alcohol, I thought that was what he was talking about. It wasn't. As I started to answer him, I realized he meant ANY restaurant.

it was probably a loaded question anyway, just trying to draw you into an argument.

Also very important is to understand he is a conservative-minded person and grew up on a farm around firearms.

conservative in name only perhaps, but deep down a Second Amendment hating liberal?

He asked because a few nights prior, while eating at a pizza restaurant, two men sat across from him with their guns exposed. My other co-worker from MS immediately said, "Oh, they must have been police if you saw their guns like that." I said, "Nope, my permit allows me to conceal or open carry." My MS friend was surprised (he has a MS permit), and the co-worker that started the converation immediately got POed. Once he realized they were likely not cops, he went off. *All* he could harp on was "what happens if one of them trying to shoot a robber kills my wife or baby???" He clearly was not concerned about the weapons' mere presence. He was going after the use of the weapon in the very situation our permits were created for.

What is interesting here is how he got mad because you can OC or CC here--as if only the police are actually worthy to carry. What I think he is actually afraid of is that he thinks [he] might miss if he had to use a firearm in self defense. He is projecting his fears on others from the sounds of it. He also sounds like he would also only be happy if the police could carry...

He got so irrate that he said he is going to start looking for signs in restaurants, and "any restaurant that doesn't have a sign banning guns will no longer get my business, and I will make sure the owner knows."

SO he is willing to infringe on the rights of other Americans to soothe and comfort his fears? The Constitution does not give him the right to be uncomfortable. Infringe on the rights of others in order to make yourself feel comfortable and give yourself a false sense of security--perfect logic he uses:screwy:

It was quite odd feeling "attacked" by not only a friend, but one that has shared many a conservative-leaning joke with me.

that is the logic of the antis--they are willing to infringe on the rights of others as long as "they" are comfortable....

It felt like a slap in the face. It was amazing how in the name of saving his wife and baby from a permit holder's stray bullet, he became so condescending. He could really make a good liberal...

sounds like he is a good liberal...

One, I just had to share to show all what we're up against - it's not just all-out liberals that are anti-gun.

liberals can come in all shapes and sizes and party affialiations...

Two, to those that support OC and have proudly said, "nobody even noticed or cared I had this ____ on my hip," it was two OCers that got my co-worker riled up. He kept his mouth shut and waited to ask me were they legal or not, then he blew up.

I fully support OC. It was not the issue of OC that caused your friend to blow up--it was the fact that they had the ability to carry at all. He sounds afraid of guns, he seems to be projecting his fears on others and wants to discriminate against others and thinks that only the police should have the ability to carry. OC was not the issue--the possession of the guns was.

I wasn't going to argue. I just let him spew. After giving it some thought, I think if he brings it up again, I'll ask him to look up statistics on getting shot by a law-abiding permit holder's stray bullet vs. getting killed in his car while traveling to the restaurant of choice... After I realized that comparison, I thought, "it's like the saying goes, swallow an elephant, but choke on a gnat."

I'm different--I would have simply set him straight, showed him the law, explained to him that it isn't the law abiding people you have to worry about, because the criminals will never obey any laws, that guns in the hands of the people is a GOOD thing and it should stay that way. I would have never allowed him to spew at me and make a scene. I would also have asked him to pointedly give me statistics to prove to me how permit holders are bad as compared to any other sector of society, and why it is that he thinks that only the police should be allowed to carry and why it is that he wants to infringe on the rights of others in order to give himself some false sense of security....

[Guest justme]

His argument is broken in a few ways.

You weren't being attacked. Your friend was giving a different opinion. While we disagree with it, we must not judge this person. They are simply acting on emotion and out of ignorance. Once you get past the emotion and look at the numbers it becomes quite clear what makes sense and what does not. Once you are past the emotion everything becomes clearer.

yes, but that is the point--the antis use a warped logic by arguing that only the police and military can and should carry.

They refuse to look at real numbers, choosing instead to jump on a single incident to say "aha! see, I was right!".... If they used real facts then the argument that 90% of all firearms going to Mexico come from here in the US--which is the biggest lie I have heard yet....They refuse to use real numbers--choosing instead to use numbers that they create.

As for emotion--emotion and projection is all they have to go on, as they refuse to use any common sense whatsoever.

[Guest justme]

It is just so hard for me to understand how he, or anyone, thought it was fine if they were LEOs, but if they were not... panic and horror. Also the upset just because he saw them as opposed had he not.

Something else that even confuses me more, is fellow HCP holders that regularly carry, being uncomfortable when seeing someone else with a handgun.

Anyway...funny how we was ok at first, then did such a 180.

because he thinks that only the police are worthy to carry....

[brooksjr]

what you have to realize is that most of the these people don't really know what they believe. i've been in several arguments/debates with democrats or liberals and once you tell them the facts they are like "OH, i didn't know that's what they stood for".

one example is with a past co-worker of mine that claimed to be democrat. i asked him if he wanted to pay more in taxes, if he thought that abortion was ok, and if he wanted his 2nd amendment rights taken away. his answer was no to every one of those questions. my response, "why the hell are you voting democrat then". his answer to that was along the lines of republicans being racist(was a black guy i was debating with). alot of people of every race or religion watch the nightly news and get caught up in the BS.

i didn't mean for this to turn into a political post but was just showing an example of the ignorance. i'm sure it probably goes both ways but in my experience conservatives seem to know more of the truth and don't go on the emotion as much. just remember it's all about CHANGE:rolleyes:

[S&WForty]

There's many good replies here (all of them!). If you knew him as I do, you'd know this is the only time he's ever come out on the liberal side of an issue. That is what shocked me so much. This logic is to be expected from the card-carrying Libs.

BillofRightsFan said it best. My co-worker is thinking with emotion rather than logic. I need to tell him to just go ahead and become a full-fledged liberal. LOL

I guess the lesson to be learned for all is don't assume all "conservatives" support our rights. When we can't count on them, it sure makes winning policy/law changes that much more difficult.

[Guest justme]

what you have to realize is that most of the these people don't really know what they believe. i've been in several arguments/debates with democrats or liberals and once you tell them the facts they are like "OH, i didn't know that's what they stood for".

one example is with a past co-worker of mine that claimed to be democrat. i asked him if he wanted to pay more in taxes, if he thought that abortion was ok, and if he wanted his 2nd amendment rights taken away. his answer was no to every one of those questions. my response, "why the hell are you voting democrat then". his answer to that was along the lines of republicans being racist(was a black guy i was debating with). alot of people of every race or religion watch the nightly news and get caught up in the BS.

i didn't mean for this to turn into a political post but was just showing an example of the ignorance. i'm sure it probably goes both ways but in my experience conservatives seem to know more of the truth and don't go on the emotion as much. just remember it's all about CHANGE:rolleyes:

They really don't know what they believe, I agree--that is why they have to have someone to tell them what to think, what to say and when to say it. There are a great many people in this country who have forgotten what it is like to actually think for themselves for a change--always depending on their government to provide everything for them...

Emotion is all they have to go on--their "facts" won't stand up to scrutiny, and their "logic" is just as flawed. All they have is the emotion of fear to drive them--and a people in fear is easily controlled, because they are more willing to surrender their rights to get "government approved protection". And someone who is afraid is always seeking another like minded person with whom they can congregate and talk about their "fears"--and if you are not just as afraid as they are, or can't see the world the way they see it--then there must be something wrong with you...in their view you are either an extremist or a terrorist because you believe in the Constitution and the rights it guarantees to each of us....

[Guest BillOfRightsFan]

one example is with a past co-worker of mine that claimed to be democrat. i asked him if he wanted to pay more in taxes, if he thought that abortion was ok, and if he wanted his 2nd amendment rights taken away. his answer was no to every one of those questions. my response, "why the hell are you voting democrat then". his answer to that was along the lines of republicans being racist(was a black guy i was debating with). alot of people of every race or religion watch the nightly news and get caught up in the BS.

I know this guys evil twin, a black postman whose family has voted Republican ever since Lincoln.

I also know similar people. I know people of the Jewish faith who are anti-gun and I always ask how do they think their ancestors in Warsaw felt about the issue in November of 1940... in fact it is that act - the mass imprisonment of people by the government for no reason and the later shipment of them to Treblinka that I think best emphasises the need for the people to have weapon rights. During 1943 the people armed themselves and did what they should have been able to do in 1940. By order from Hitler himself, the ghetto was smashed, literally. Photos of the ruins look a bit like Hiroshima.

I don't consider that an extreme case either - it is an extreme result of what happens when you take away soverignty from the people, step by step as the German government did in the 1930's. It starts with restrictions on liberties (often in the name of protecting people) and later makes the people vulnerable. Our situation today is far better than it was for others circa 1933 - but why let it go in that direction at all?

As for the friend that is anti-gun... all I can say is they cling to a lot of extremely left wing ideals. To the point of making the most absurd arguments to support them. When I realize someone can't sustain a strongly held position with logic I tend to just cut the conversation short.

[Guest Britestar]

He was going after the use of the weapon in the very situation our permits were created for.

I am a LITTLE concerned about that statement. Permits were created to allow people to exercise their constitional rights. Really should not need a permit for that but it is the system we have. If you read you will see underscored many times that the permit is not to allow people to be "freelance police officers" and there are some situations that it may not be the wisest thing to do, pulling your weapon. I am really concerned what some people who may have an agenda that is anti gun and anti carry that could take much of what is said on here out of context or in some cases take it the way it is written and meant to hinder our cause.

[Guest justme]

BillofRightsFan said it best. My co-worker is thinking with emotion rather than logic. I need to tell him to just go ahead and become a full-fledged liberal. LOL

the next time the discussion comes up simply ask him to provide you with hard, verifiable statistics--not those given by Brady or the violence policy center, but hard statistics about how permit holders are worse than criminals...

then ask him how a sign banning firearms is going to stop an armed criminal from walking in and robbing or shooting up the place....criminals don't care...

ask him how the "no guns" policy at Virginia Tech protected all of those students who were shot and killed in Apr. 2007...the "no guns" policy did wonders there did it not...If he replies with "that is what the police are for"--then ask him why is it that by the time the police mobilized and were ready to move in--the shooter was already done and had killed himself...32 people plus the shooter were killed that day, and I think it was 14 more wounded, and all pretty much before the police could even get ready to respond..."no firearms" policies/signs did wonders for Virginia Tech.

Their logic is flawed. Utah allows carry on campuses in its state--and I would think that if there were any shootings conducted by an armed student in an active shooter role on a Utah university campus--it would be plastered all over the news. The news simply could not pass it up. Many states allow carry in restaurants that serve alcohol--and still I hear of no mass shootings or "show downs"--In Virginia you can only OC while in a restaurant that serves alcohol and you cannot drink...and there have been no reports of "show downs" in the parking lots of Virginia restaurants....

fear mongering is all they have to go on...their "logic" is fllawed--they lack any semblance of common sense. They think "well all you have to do is pass another law and everything is immediately OK..." It is pathetic the way they think--and they are more than willing to step on the rights of anyone else just as long as "they" feel comfortable in some lie they call "state sponsored security..."

[G27]

Sounds like your 'friend' is a republican, not a conservative...

[Guest HexHead]

I tried to tell him that. He's just bent on (all) permit holder's being a throwback to the wild west. No, we're not lookin' fer a gunfight pardner...

I would just tell him not to worry, if you're with him and his family and things go wrong, you won't lift a finger to protect them.

[Guest slothful1]

Even though I carry a gun, if I saw a couple of dudes carrying openly like that, it would make me extremely nervous and I wouldn't have a good time eating there. I would be worrying the entire time as to why they were so blazenly open about it. The time for a gun like that is for a defensive posture -- wear it openly and you'll be the first that the bad guy takes out when he makes his hit (if he is stupid enough to do that.)

Strange... if OCers automatically make themselves the first target, then wouldn't that make you feel more safe knowing that you'd have time to react / flee when the SHTF?

[JayC]

I'm sorry but I open carry a lot, the vast majority of time I end up open carrying anymore... It's summer and I don't want to wear layers of clothing to conceal carry, or the business attire I wear doesn't allow for me to conceal carry the firearm of my choice.... Why should I be forced to go unarmed instead? I'm not breaking the law, it's alot safer to have a gun with me openly than to be caught without one when I need it.

I understand *some* people think it puts me at a tactical disadvantage, but I believe the disadvantage is less than if I'm caught totally unarmed. Just because I don't want to wear and untucked shirt, and look like a slob I'm not allowed to defend myself?

How exactly is it asking for trouble? Very few criminals come into a place of business to rob it and stick around for 10, 15, 20 minutes before the start the hold up... The chances you might notice me openly carrying besides you after an hour, pretty high, the chances a bad guy is going to notice me in the 30 seconds it takes him to walk up to the cash register, very slim...

And lets say he does notice me, it's just as likely if not more so that he turns around and picks another place to rob, because opening fire on an armed person is a lot harder than moving down the road to the next pizza joint that doesn't have somebody with a gun in there...

Sure there are risks involved in openly carrying a firearm, you need to be a bit more on your toes, you need to worry about retention of the firearm more (I for example carry a level II retention holster when openly carrying)... But the facts are in most environments I carry in, local McD's, Lowes, WalMart, etc there is little risk a gang banger is going to run up on me and try to steal my weapon... If I go into a high risk area I know to conceal (or better yet just not go)...

Why should I have to leave my gun in the car/at home just because my style of dress doesn't lend itself to concealed carry? Maybe if more of us openly carried, business owners would realize that a lot of their best customers have permits and wouldn't worry as much.

BTW, I've NEVER been asked to leave a business before while openly carrying, I've never even had anybody say anything about it... I've never even had an officer ask me a single question (let alone to see my permit) even when standing in line at a restaurant in front of a group of officers. Maybe it's the way I dress, maybe it's the clothes I wear, maybe it's the way I act, but people rarely even notice the gun on my belt, and when they do nobody says anything to me about it... YMMV

I'm sorry but do you avoid restaurants where police are eating because you're worried they might be targets of robbers? They're a lot more likely to open fire to stop the robbery, and are much much more likely to hit an innocent person in the process (nationally about 5 times more likely than a permit holder).

I understand that we as permit holders have the right to openly carry our firearms, but you know, it's just asking for trouble. Most people who blow up like your friend simply don't have all the facts. Your friend will probably not take the time to find the stats that you talked about. The best thing you could do is get them yourself and have them ready. I'm ashamed to say I don't know the exact stats right now, I just know they lean very heavily in our favor. Even though I carry a gun, if I saw a couple of dudes carrying openly like that, it would make me extremely nervous and I wouldn't have a good time eating there. I would be worrying the entire time as to why they were so blazenly open about it. The time for a gun like that is for a defensive posture -- wear it openly and you'll be the first that the bad guy takes out when he makes his hit (if he is stupid enough to do that.) It's a frustrating set of circumstances for permit holders right now. If we make restaurant owners mad, we are creating more trouble for ourselves and perhaps limiting our options for the future.

[daddyo]

Unfortunately, when someone goes emo, there's nothing you can do, except to do what you did. When emotions take over, there's no more logic or reason for that person. Any attempts to help them see facts are useless. I won't waste my time with them until they calm down.

[texfrazer]

I hate jumping into this conversation due to the high emotional content from all sides, but what the heck - it's a Monday after all.

I can completely understand the reasoning of your friend. Why? Because he's a product of the television information age. Everyone my age and younger are products of the television information age. Not that all of us take our knowledge from television, but the impact television has had on our society is so large, everyone can't help but be impacted from it. The greatest example would be the last presidential campaign. The fact that one word was able to usher in an extremely radical leadership is proof of how we have all been conditioned to a short, simple message instead of well thought out and explained principles.

That all being said, if a person has never researched and thought out the present and historical precedents of an armed populace and its effect upon their governance, then there cannot be an expectation that the person will blindly choose to support the arming of the people.

For a large percentage of the US population, the idea of being surrounded by a lot of people wearing guns is frightening. Why? Because all they've ever seen are tv shows, movies, and the nightly news. All of which portray people who own guns as either being criminals who routinely shoot other people, police officers who routinely shoot other people, or vigilantes who routinely shoot other people. Therefore, unless someone has done some real research, they will automatically assume that an armed person is someone who routinely shoots people, and their only hope is that the armed person happens to be a police officer.

This is not to say that people who think like this will not support the 2nd Amendment. It does, however, tend to indicate how people will react when they are are knowingly in the presence of an armed individual.

Now, I know that this isn't logical, but gun owners and people who carry need to understand that this is where the vast majority of people start out and they have to either wilfully move themselves to a more enlightened position, or they have to be helped along the way by others who can withstand the emotional outbursts and not respond in kind, but calmly continue to provide logical arguments as they assist the other person to a higher level of understanding.

[Guest justme]

I understand that we as permit holders have the right to openly carry our firearms, but you know, it's just asking for trouble. Most people who blow up like your friend simply don't have all the facts. Your friend will probably not take the time to find the stats that you talked about. The best thing you could do is get them yourself and have them ready. I'm ashamed to say I don't know the exact stats right now, I just know they lean very heavily in our favor. Even though I carry a gun, if I saw a couple of dudes carrying openly like that, it would make me extremely nervous and I wouldn't have a good time eating there. I would be worrying the entire time as to why they were so blazenly open about it. The time for a gun like that is for a defensive posture -- wear it openly and you'll be the first that the bad guy takes out when he makes his hit (if he is stupid enough to do that.) It's a frustrating set of circumstances for permit holders right now. If we make restaurant owners mad, we are creating more trouble for ourselves and perhaps limiting our options for the future.

You know, I keep hearing all of this "it puts you at a tactical disadvantage"--but really what puts you at a bigger disadvantage, having to fumble with an untucked shirt in the middle of summer in order to draw or being able to draw clean?

I am completely comfortable being around people who OC--and I have been around several. I have no problems whatsoever when I see someone carrying their gun openly--I just think--way to go, wish more would do that. I would have no problem standing in line behind an OC'er.

For me it isn't about being afraid that it puts me at a "tactical disadvantage"--for me it is about not having to fumble with an untucked shirt in the middle of a blazing summer, and being forced to look sloppy simply because someone might take offense to seeing a gun OC'ed.

It is the same old story--well you can have "your" rights--almost as if they say it with a sneer, and then silently they think "just as long as I don't have to see you exercise them"...as if anyone who carries openly is nothing short of a criminal.

I simply don't get panicking at the sight of an OC'er--so they carry openly-so what? It is legal--it just isn't "socially acceptable"...

And I disagree about being the "first that the bad guy takes out"....most of the time the only people targeting OC'ers around the country are those in law enforcement. I have yet to hear a story of a bad guy who proactively shot an OC'er before proceeding with their mayhem and madness....

[G27]

Does anyone have any proof that someone OC'ing actually becomes a target? Has anyone OC'ing ever been targeted during a crime?

Curious, just asking. I don;t OC but I see this argument all the time. I don't recall ever hearing of a situation where someone OC'iong was targeted.