Firefighters let man's home burn down over $75 fee.

[strickj]

The man's life was not in danger. You're talking about something completely different when you bring someone's life into it.

Until you check your emotions, you won't see the truth.

So....what if I wreck a car, am entrapped within it, but I have no life threatening injuries?

Life....what about his pets lives? How many people here in this thread have publicly posted that they would kill to protect their animals, because their animals are family.

About the emotions thing....yeah

This is about morals, doing what is right, and just being humane. I do not go to church and do not have any religious convictions, whatsoever....but it seems I have more morals (which apparently only come from the religious) then most here in this thread.

Originally Posted by Fallguy

Don't get me wrong, I feel bad for this guy, but I also think he is in this boat by his own doing.

It was my own fault for wrecking my bike. Does that mean I deserve to die because I didn't pay for protection and it was my fault? Edited October 8, 2010 by strickj

[Guest m&pc9]

It was my own fault for wrecking my bike. Does that mean I deserve to die because I didn't pay for protection?

You pay taxes that paid for your help after your wreck. The county that man lives in apparently pay no taxes for fire protection.

I know where your coming from. I volunteered for about 10 years, But the man brought it on himself.

Thats why I pay home, car, health,and life insurance. I like to be prepared.

[strickj]

You pay taxes that paid for your help after your wreck. The county that man lives in apparently pay no taxes for fire protection.

I know where your coming from. I volunteered for about 10 years, But the man brought it on himself.

Thats why I pay home, car, health,and life insurance. I like to be prepared.

My wreck was in NC. I never paid any taxes to them.

[Fallguy]

It was my own fault for wrecking my bike. Does that mean I deserve to die because I didn't pay for protection?

The services your recieved were paid for by tax dollars and are provided to all in the service are of those agencies.

Obion County does not provide fire service. Perhaps a sad fact, but a fact nonetheless. If you live there and don't like that, move to a county that has fire service, organize a volunteer department (with your own money, sweat and tears) or buy the service.

As for as morals...I'm sure several of the firefighter wanted to act, and if there was someway that could have acted as private individuals with their own personal resources, maybe they should have. But as member of the South Fulton FD, with city owned equipment they didn't have that luxury.

[Fallguy]

My wreck was in NC. I never paid any taxes to them.

But again as I said, they are still services that the county/city provide to all in their service area. Fire Protection is not a service provided by Obion County or arganged for by them.

Some rural counties don't have EMS service...but they contract the service from someone else Rural Metro, ASI or others....if those contracts/fees aren't paid there won't be ambulances in those counties and the residents will suffer....so then those counties don't forget to pay the contract....

[Fallguy]

acording to the local county goverment charter tax dollars go to the vol. fire dept also state and fed. grants not saying either way does the man pay his taxes

over 65% of operating money came from those sources maybe the man didnt pay the 75 but he must pay taxes i think as a human being this is disgusting

just my 2 cents worth after checking where the fire dept got there money i now ask each of you would you stand by and watch someones home burn

Looking at the Private Act for Obion County http://www.ctas.utk.edu/public/CTASpriv.nsf/PrivateActs/7A6994B7BFE181BD8625648100578FB8/$FILE/OBION+CO+-+2004.pdf?openelement I did a search for the word "Fire" and the only thing found was a refrence to Fireworks.

[Guest HvyMtl]

Strickj, apples to oranges - fire vs ambulance... Or is it?

In actuality, ambulance services used to be private (the one for Goodlettsville used to be run by the local funeral home...) and were pay for play. You wanted an ambulance? You better have paid the fee.

Rural Ambulance is a private service contracted (paid) by the County or City. And that is the point. Paid for by taxes and fees.

In this case, the County in question DOES NOT HAVE FIRE SERVICE. Why? The County does not have enough tax and fee revenue to afford it. And, in this case, a Fire Dept was ADDING SERVICE FOR A FEE to an area WITH NO SERVICE. This fire dept was going out of their usual jurisdiction to give additional service to those with no coverage. Something they do not have to do.

Had there not been a $75/year service to the area, the story would have been this: House burns in rural area. End of story, if we had even heard about it at all...

Sad thing is strickj, had you had your accident in an area with no police or ambulance service, you would have had to rely on the kindness of whomever found you to take you to the hospital. Which would have been true for Davidson County as late as the early 1960's... Unless you had paid a fee. (Heck, it is still true now, if all 16-18 Metro/Davidson Co. Ambulances are on call and not available, you either wait for who knows how long, get yourself to the hospital, or pray someone else does... but I digress.)

So - In this case, it is not the fault of the fire dept, but the fault of the County, and its inability to afford service coverage due to lack of tax base, or fees, or poor money management.

You people forget, the Brentwood Fire Dept was the SAME THING this was - IIRC it was a $300/ year fee. IF you did NOT pay, they would NOT respond. They would go to the neighbor who did pay, to prevent damage to their property. This was the case until the late 1970's early 1980's. THIS IS NOT NEW...

So, what do I see happening? I see a discontinuation of the fee service, with the Fire Dept not leaving its jurisdiction in the near future, due to the negative outburst.

Edited October 8, 2010 by HvyMtl

[strickj]

Strickj, apples to oranges - fire vs ambulance... Or is it?

Nope, fire responded.

Guys, I don't think anyone here has a problem with the county not offering fire service of their own.

I know, as I'm sure most here do, that the blame for not offering fire service rest on the shoulders of the voters not electing to pay tax to pay for it.

The problem here is that firefighters were on scene. They were there, ready to rock, for the neighbors house....but didn't do anything for the family who's house was actually ablaze.

They stood by while this family lost everything they had. They stood by while this family became homeless. They stood by while this family lost their beloved pets. All for the price of a few measly dollars.

That is the disgrace.

As been said, had this been a cop standing by watching a crime being committed against someone and he chose not to help, then there would be hell to pay. It wouldn't matter one bit if his department's policies said that he couldn't help, there would still be hell for him to pay. Why? Because he would be following immoral orders that he should have ignored in order to do the right thing.

This whole ordeal sickens me to know that there are people out there who's jobs are to help, but don't, based on a late bill or a technicality.

Edited October 8, 2010 by strickj

[Guest Jamie]

This whole ordeal sickens me to know that there are people out there who's jobs are to help, but don't, based on a late bill or a technicality.

Notice anything there? "Bill"... "Job"?

Emergency service is and always has been a business... it has overhead, equipment costs, employee wages, etc. People are paid to perform a service.

And if it isn't run as a business, and run well... then it won't take long before it is "out of business".

It can sicken or disgust you 'til the cows come home, but that's just the way it is, and likely always will be.

BTW, my understanding is that the FD responded to the neighbor who had paid the required fee. Is that incorrect?

And no, the cop would not be in any trouble if he was following departmental policy in not acting outside his appointed area or jurisdiction. The CLEO of that department might, but the officer would be fine.

Along those lines, the sheriff I worked for once got P.O.ed at THP and banned them from this county. It's not common knowledge, but for a period of time, no Tn State Trooper got off the interstate in this county, per the sheriff's policy.

No one ever got in trouble for it that I've ever heard of.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Jamie

[Guest m&pc9]

My wreck was in NC. I never paid any taxes to them.

Have you ever bought anything, a coca-cola or a gallon of gas in N.C.. Plus a portion of your Fed taxes go to them.

[Guest m&pc9]

double click

[daddyo]

That is the disgrace.

No one said it wasn't a disgrace. Should they have been able to help? Absolutely. But the fact remains that the man chose not to pay the annual fee. He brought it on himself.

The county nor the FD had any responsibility to bail this man out of a situation that he created.

[Major Kong]

But the fact remains that the man chose not to pay the annual fee. He brought it on himself.

FTW. If the fire department had helped him even though he hadn't paid his annual fee, who do you think is going to pay the fee next year? The fire department would have set a precedent.

[daddyo]

Chumponomics « Hot Air

From the article:

The understandable emotional response to the plight of Gene Cranick is exactly the kind of leverage politicians use to impose chumponomics on us. It’s just not fair that the poor man’s house burned down while firefighters stood idly by! But there are reasonable questions to ask, once we set emotions aside. Why doesn’t Obion County have its own fire department? Presumably it was more cost-effective to lease fire control services from South Fulton. Why doesn’t Obion County tax its residents and pay South Fulton on their behalf? Because it would cost a lot more than $75, once a typical government bureaucracy got involved… and you can bet that fire protection fee would quickly vanish into a morass of other taxes, blending into a bloated pudding that soon made it impossible for anyone to know how much they were paying for any given service.

Allowing its residents to pay a voluntary $75 fee to South Fulton was the most inexpensive and efficient means for Obion County to provide fire protection to its residents… assuming they acted like responsible homeowners, instead of crybabies and chumps. If we expect maternal government to save us from ourselves in all circumstances, we had better be ready to pay the high cost of our day care. Most of that bill will be footed by the dwindling number of people who remain productive and responsible, despite the absence of logical reasons to do so.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Government can't be all things to all people.

It's ridiculously easy to place blame on an event or action from afar.

Charity doesn't come from the government. What the government does

with your money doesn't fit that definition. Actions have consequences.

Been there, done that. The only one you can effectively rely on is

yourself. You make the right choice and you benefit. You make the wrong

choice and you suffer. I've done both.

This type of service is not uncommon. It's been around for years, and before

that, there was no service. You have the internet now, and media outlets to

entertain and educate you. Evidently, that's the only way some of you even

know about it.

Blame the firemen? Or their dispatcher? Why? Does it make you feel better?

Why don't you move to that area and fix all their problems? You sure have

all the answers. If they choose to live in that area, they live there knowing

they don't have all the 'luxuries' of the more developed communities. Maybe

that's why they live there, in the first place. I don't know.

While I do sympathize with their loss, I don't really think I can fix their

problems. And I doubt they can fix mine, but I didn't ask, either.

That's why I mention things like taxation and government. What are you willing

to pay for for your emotional response to the next thing that happens? Then,

when your government gets so huge that it can't function without controlling

everything you do, how are you going to 'feel' then?

That's where we're headed.

[DaveTN]

It's not that what the Firefighters did was legal.....it's that if they acted it would have been illegal.

You are trying to justify what these clowns did by saying it would have been illegal; there is nothing to indicate that.

I have always said that I am not worried about the military or cops going around collecting guns because they would not do it; it is wrong. Maybe I am wrong. According to you these guys failed to act because they thought they had been given a lawful order? Let’s hope none of them are cops or National Guard because if someone told them to go start collecting guns; they just might try. Seems a few here might help them.

As for as morals...I'm sure several of the firefighter wanted to act, and if there was someway that could have acted as private individuals with their own personal resources, maybe they should have. But as member of the South Fulton FD, with city owned equipment they didn't have that luxury.

I have to say this…. I worked it a fairly big city (100,000). As I said before I worked with Firemen everyday and my Father in law was one. What happened here is no more the norm for Firemen than a cop doing something stupid and everyone bashing cops in general. What is different here is that people are usually pretty quick to judge cops and Firemen are usually the good guys. Mistakes were made. If one person gave an order to stand by and do nothing, then that person will have to answer for it. It doesn’t matter whether or not he had the legal authority to do what he did or not. The citizens in the area will have to decide if that is the person they want calling the shots for the FD. I certainly wouldn’t want him in that position. He has shown that he just doesn’t have what it takes to be a first responder.

I’m really surprised at this thread though. No wonder common sense in guns laws is so hard to obtain.

[TGO David]

Did the man who refused to pay the $75 have ANY responsibility here?

Sure. But didn't he also agree to pay them whatever they needed so long as they just saved his home?

[daddyo]

Sure. But didn't he also agree to pay them whatever they needed so long as they just saved his home?

Would you accept a check from someone you didn't know for a firearm unless you could verify the funds before releasing the firearm to him?

Yes, the man could have written them a check, but how did they know it was any good? Part of the reason for paying in advance is so that your payment can be verified. Had the county made that provision, then it would have been viable. But they were very clear up front about the requirements. Either you pay the fee up front, or you are not entitled to services. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

The fact remains that this man did not consider his home to be worth a measly $75/year. Sorry, but I don't see where anyone else is to blame. To quote the knight in Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade, "he chose..... poorly".

Edited October 8, 2010 by DaddyO

[Daniel]

As been said, had this been a cop standing by watching a crime being committed against someone and he chose not to help, then there would be hell to pay. It wouldn't matter one bit if his department's policies said that he couldn't help, there would still be hell for him to pay. Why? Because he would be following immoral orders that he should have ignored in order to do the right thing.

This whole ordeal sickens me to know that there are people out there who's jobs are to help, but don't, based on a late bill or a technicality.

The bolded portion of your statement reminded me of something Punisher said earlier.

In the Military you are required to follow even an imoral order. You can have a problem with it but you still must carry it out. You then can complain after the fact. Until an order is illegal it must be executed.

[Punisher84]

The bolded portion of your statement reminded me of something Punisher said earlier.

In the Military you are required to follow even an imoral order. You can have a problem with it but you still must carry it out. You then can complain after the fact. Until an order is illegal it must be executed.

Hopping back in for a second, but yea that is true. I think my exact words were "BS" order and I was referring to illegal behavior mostly. It probably wasn't the best example in this case, but after talking to several people last night at work including police, firefighters, EMTs, etc I still maintain that A. They should have acted and B. The Fire Dept. should review it's policy. Most everyone I talked to agreed. I know that doesn't change any minds here and I'm certainly done trying because it's kind of a spinning wheel now. It's a high emotion thing and everyone has their views on it. I accept that.

[Daniel]

You are trying to justify what these clowns did by saying it would have been illegal; there is nothing to indicate that.

Not true. The city manager stated that it would have been illegal for them to act.

I do agree that the policy should be reviewed and they should maybe take the after the fact billing option at the least but until then....

[RobertNashville]

So what's next? No fire service if you're late on your property taxes or your water bill? Since Bartlett has no specific fire fee that I know of, I guess the city could use this logic.

No because one way or another, a city (or State or whatever) WILL collect property taxes even if they have to go as far as to foreclose on the property to get them.

For this man it was a voluntary arrangement which he either chose to pay for or not...to borrow a phrase from a well known movie; he chose poorly.

[RobertNashville]

You are trying to justify what these clowns did by saying it would have been illegal; there is nothing to indicate that.

There is a lot of talk about "duty" and "right and wrong" and "morals" in this thread but I have to wonder if any of you who are so vehemently upset that "these clowns" didn't act to save Mr. Cranick from his own poor choices...how much you have contributed to a fund to help Mr. Cranick buy a new trailer?

It seems to me that doing that would be a hell of lot more helpful than an 8+ page thread complaining about the South Fulton FD.

Just a thought.

[Guest db99wj]

Not true. The city manager stated that it would have been illegal for them to act.

I do agree that the policy should be reviewed and they should maybe take the after the fact billing option at the least but until then....

Yep, he said that on several interviews that it would have been illegal to act.

I said it before, they are all wrong in this, all of them. Hopefully some good will come out of this, by people understanding to pay for services that are essential to their well being even if the likelyhood of the protected disaster of happening is very low, kinda like carrying a gun for self defense, odds are low that anything will ever happen, but we carry that "insurance" everyday...well some of us! LOL! 2. The system will change to address the possiblities of people not paying or being unable to pay and have a secondary plan on protecting them, ie billing after the fact a larger amount than the annual protection.

[strickj]

Notice anything there? "Bill"... "Job"?

Emergency service is and always has been a business... it has overhead, equipment costs, employee wages, etc. People are paid to perform a service.

And if it isn't run as a business, and run well... then it won't take long before it is "out of business".

It can sicken or disgust you 'til the cows come home, but that's just the way it is, and likely always will be.

BTW, my understanding is that the FD responded to the neighbor who had paid the required fee. Is that incorrect?

And no, the cop would not be in any trouble if he was following departmental policy in not acting outside his appointed area or jurisdiction. The CLEO of that department might, but the officer would be fine.

Along those lines, the sheriff I worked for once got P.O.ed at THP and banned them from this county. It's not common knowledge, but for a period of time, no Tn State Trooper got off the interstate in this county, per the sheriff's policy.

No one ever got in trouble for it that I've ever heard of.

It isn't WalMart. It's not their job to collect payments. It's not their job to perform loss prevention and theft from non payment.

It's their job to put out fires.

I have no problem with them needing to make money. We all need to make money.

But doing so while a family's home is ablaze is just, well, horrible.

Have you ever bought anything, a coca-cola or a gallon of gas in N.C.. Plus a portion of your Fed taxes go to them.

Never bought anything in, or from NC.

I've been to NC once in my life and it didn't work out too well so I haven't been back