WARNING - Post contains some moral and religious content!

[musicman]

Hey guys, this post is a mix of two things from me.

First, this is my last thought on the big thread that's been going on all day:

To be honest, I realize I am young, and I know I only hold most of my beliefs at this time simply because it's what my parents or other strong influences told me. I grew up in a Baptist school while going to a Nazarene church (and still am Nazarene) I don't necessarily hold too tightly to all my ideas right now. That may sound dumb, but I'm willing to debate just about anything to try and learn or understand more. What does distress me about the thread is the sharp, and sometimes derogatory retorts of some of our members. Discussion and debate do not necessarily include derision. I know we have members who are not heterosexual, and I am OK with that. I am fearful of the idea that they may be hurt by some of the things I've said. I don't want to run anybody off. But i'm still not sure of where I stand on it. There are some hard questions raised. If it is an inborn thing, why would God subject someone to that? (Of course, that would only matter to you if you believe in God.)

And here's the second, open ended part: .... as soon as I leave the office tonight I am headed to a hospital in Nashville where a couple from my church who are very close with my wife and I will probably be giving birth to a stillborn at 23 weeks tonight. The baby's name is Genesis, and she is the first child Brien and Amy. How is that a gift from a loving God? I can't answer that right now. I'm all tore up about it. But does me not having an answer give me a reason to doubt him? .... I don't think so, at this point.

Ugh.... life is not easy. I don't really know what to say or how to sum up my feelings in a logical way right now.

My hope is that we can all be buddies and get together and have a great time, regardless of all the other crap that goes on. Throughout the day I have gained more and more respect for some of our members. I have also been challenged through some conversations off the board and appreciate those. As I said, I am still growing as a person, and thank you all for being a part of that!!

Take care ya'll. I'm off to Baptist Hospital.

[xd shooter]

I'm hurt man. No one should have to go through what your freinds are. You will never hear me speek of religon, politics or any other topic like the one in the other thread. Though I did throw that joke at you (you left that wide open), I'm surprised no one ese got that before I got home. LOL.

These are sensitive subjects & I just don't speak of them if I can help it. Freedom is Freedom do as you wish. I have no problem with it.

Again i'm sorry to hear about your freinds. My prayers (If they mean anything) will be with you & your freinds.

[Guest Steelharp]

I don't have the time or space to completely go into this. I am so sorry for what your friends and you are going through. This is a very tough time, and my prayers are with you.

This is not the "gift" of a loving God. You have to understand, from the original translations, the differences in the persons of God. That's why you have God, LORD, etc. in the Bible. God is God on the throne. LORD is Jehovah God, the spirit of Him here on earth that is the "government" that allows things to work. God is not in control. We have free will; that would be useless if He ran everything. Everything runs in a "system" of seedtime and harvest; what you sow, so shall ye reap, what goes around, comes around, etc. We are ultimately responsible for the actions and consequences thereof. Life and death is in the power of the tongue. Your words matter, they are the seeds that set things in motion. There is so much more...

[TripleDigitRide]

I hope your friends are able to find the strength to move forward with their lives.

Who are these "non-heterosexuals" you speak of?

To each his/her own!

[Mike.357]

This thread has some real potential.

I for one am not afraid to speak of my doubts of God. I was baptized and raised catholic. I have been exposed to most of what you speak about.

I was a firm believer in God and religion until I grew up. I recieved education for 12 years from parochial schools. I have an aunt who is a Dominican nun and no doubt would be heartbroken if she ever knew my doubts or beliefs. She told me once that God, while all loving is a just God and you will answer for any sins you have.

I for one have a hard time having blind faith. I need to see something to make me believe. I am sure some of you can point out episodes that prove to you the existence of God. What has driven me from belief is very simple. And it is a question I posed in the other thread. Why do children get leukemia? God is all loving and just, but what did children do to deserve this? When this question can be answered my beliefs may change. It sounds simple and to me it is. This is exactly the same type of thing Musicman and his friends from church are dealing with. While maybe some way and some how the parents did something to deserve the pain they must be feeling the child certainly did not. Why is this child not perfect , going to full term and being born? Why would God allow this?

These questions are absolutely at the root of my doubt.

Musicman states

I know we have members who are not heterosexual

How do you know this? Do you KNOW? Or do you suspect? No one has come out on this board. I would tend to think that there are a few gay people on this board simply based on statistics.

Musicman also states

My hope is that we can all be buddies and get together and have a great time, regardless of all the other crap that goes on.

I don't have a clue as to why it would not be this way. Diversity makes life interesting. If we were all the same things would be very boring.

Steelharp states

You have to understand, from the original translations, the differences in the persons of God. That's why you have God, LORD, etc. in the Bible. God is God on the throne. LORD is Jehovah God, the spirit of Him here on earth that is the "government" that allows things to work.

This is all very new to me. I was taught to believe in the Holy Trinity. And in that all three are God. Actually your entire post is very deep. It needs more thought on my part and pretty much does not line up with what I was taught in Catholic school.

And ain't it interesting that this whole thing came from a silly joke?

[xd shooter]

It's funny where some jokes can go LOL.

[Guest Steelharp]

Mike, I, too, was raised Catholic. Even an altar boy in the Latin days. God is a Trinity, and we are made in His image; body, spirit man, and soul. The LORD is that part of him that works the seedtime and harvest system. In Job 1:6, it says, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." Satan cannot be in the presence of God, Satan and Hell being by definition the absence of God. That alone shows that the LORD is a different part of God. In verse 8, it says, "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" The LORD speaks of God as someone else.

Mike, I highly recommend you find a book called, "The System," by Robin Bullock. He is a brilliant man of God. It will help a lot. Get a Dake Bible, as well.

[Smith]

Mike, I, too, was raised Catholic. Even an altar boy in the Latin days. God is a Trinity, and we are made in His image; body, spirit man, and soul. The LORD is that part of him that works the seedtime and harvest system. In Job 1:6, it says, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." Satan cannot be in the presence of God, Satan and Hell being by definition the absence of God. That alone shows that the LORD is a different part of God. In verse 8, it says, "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" The LORD speaks of God as someone else.

Mike, I highly recommend you find a book called, "The System," by Robin Bullock. He is a brilliant man of God. It will help a lot. Get a Dake Bible, as well.

Not to be nit picky but you're mixing Bilbe with tradition. God is indeed three in one and yes Satan can go into heaven (not as a resident) as he is in dominion over this earth. He is not bound in "hell" or ghenna yet. That is why in Revelation God destroys both Heaven and Earth and creates a new Heaven and Earth. I know this is very simplistic and thin, but i don't have 10 pages to dedicate to the topic.

Musicman it is indeed tough to wrestle with these things. As a pastor I think everyone needs to wrestle with these things in order to allow God to lead them through to the truth. Jacob had to wrestle with the angel before he got the blessing. Wrestling/debating is a good thing if you are truly seeking truth.

I lost my 2nd child in a similar way and it was indeed very difficult. but what I had to come to is the realization is that perception is not always reality. Maybe my child would have been healthy, more than likely not and that is why it didn't not live. As i wrestled with it through that Friday night and Saturday, I couldn't get many answers. Sunday rolled around I found myself waiting to preach when the thought cam to me that the first time I would see that child would be in eternity. I had thought that life in this world was the best but God knew that child needed to start life with him.

Why do bad things happen to good people? The theoretical answer is that according to the scriptures, as born sinners we "deserve" nothing good. Only death. So anything good that happens to us is God's grace. With that in mind do experience more of God's goodness or more of his justice? I think if we look objectively we would say we are blessed far more than we are "punished". does that make it easier when it happens, probably not, but such is life.

I can't make people believe as I do and don't believe I have to. I will simply tell and let truth fall where it may. As far as you're friends, just be there and let them grieve. Paul prayed three times for God to remove his "thorn" and gods answered, "I won't remove the "thorn", but i will give you the grace to endure." May your friends be granted the grace to endure.

[Guest Steelharp]

nsnate02... pastor, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you somewhat. Satan has "dominion" over the earth, not a pass to heaven. That is a lesser point, however.

Refer to 1 John 1:5, "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." It is a common misconception, among scholars as well, that God punishes. There is no darkness in Him, therefore His capability to harm us is non-existent. This is where seed and harvest are so important. Our words, our actions set the angels in motion to bring us our harvest. WE are the authors of our own destiny. It is our personal choices that bring our fate. God is good, but not in control. If He was in control, would things be in the mess they are in? Absolutely not. It would be Heaven, where He IS in control. We determine what goes on here.

[Smith]

nsnate02... pastor, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you somewhat. Satan has "dominion" over the earth, not a pass to heaven. That is a lesser point, however.

Refer to 1 John 1:5, "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." It is a common misconception, among scholars as well, that God punishes. There is no darkness in Him, therefore His capability to harm us is non-existent. This is where seed and harvest are so important. Our words, our actions set the angels in motion to bring us our harvest. WE are the authors of our own destiny. It is our personal choices that bring our fate. God is good, but not in control. If He was in control, would things be in the mess they are in? Absolutely not. It would be Heaven, where He IS in control. We determine what goes on here.

It's the old Arminiast vs. Calvinist debate. I tend to fall in the middle. God is in control and man has free will. I've never seen this argument "won", but it is interesting and since it's been going on for over 400 hundred years.... me thinks it will continue.

[Guest Steelharp]

Probably true. But... Calvinism teaches that everything thats happened in all eternity was ordered and predestined by God. I don't agree with that at all. Nor do I share the Arminiast view. I believe God knows the outcome of all the choices you might make, but He's just as lost as Janet March as to the outcome until you decide SOMEthing.

[Daniel]

we have no idea if their even is a heaven so who is to say what kind of shape its in?

[Guest Steelharp]

Well, in Matthew 5:"3": Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Now, if you feel comfortable in the position of calling Jesus a liar, then you can doubt heaven's existence. Count me not in that crowd, thanks!

[Guest Angel 24/7]

I'm sorry about your friends, I could not imagine. I don't know why God does these things? I with you I think i know alot but, I also have alot to learn! My mom told me a long time ago you become a women when you can admitt when your wrong, & accept critisim to make you stronger! I am open minded. I pray that my mother is in heaven watching over me & my family & there are things that have happened in our lives that I know she has to be!

[Guest clownsdd]

wow! After reading all this, I don't have to go to church Sunday for my weekly sermon now!

[Guest Steelharp]

Oh, yes you do! You need to go tonight, too!

[Guest canynracer]

Not to be nit picky but you're mixing Bilbe with tradition. God is indeed three in one and yes Satan can go into heaven (not as a resident) as he is in dominion over this earth. He is not bound in "hell" or ghenna yet. That is why in Revelation God destroys both Heaven and Earth and creates a new Heaven and Earth. I know this is very simplistic and thin, but i don't have 10 pages to dedicate to the topic.

Musicman it is indeed tough to wrestle with these things. As a pastor I think everyone needs to wrestle with these things in order to allow God to lead them through to the truth. Jacob had to wrestle with the angel before he got the blessing. Wrestling/debating is a good thing if you are truly seeking truth.

I lost my 2nd child in a similar way and it was indeed very difficult. but what I had to come to is the realization is that perception is not always reality. Maybe my child would have been healthy, more than likely not and that is why it didn't not live. As i wrestled with it through that Friday night and Saturday, I couldn't get many answers. Sunday rolled around I found myself waiting to preach when the thought cam to me that the first time I would see that child would be in eternity. I had thought that life in this world was the best but God knew that child needed to start life with him.

Why do bad things happen to good people? The theoretical answer is that according to the scriptures, as born sinners we "deserve" nothing good. Only death. So anything good that happens to us is God's grace. With that in mind do experience more of God's goodness or more of his justice? I think if we look objectively we would say we are blessed far more than we are "punished". does that make it easier when it happens, probably not, but such is life.

I can't make people believe as I do and don't believe I have to. I will simply tell and let truth fall where it may. As far as you're friends, just be there and let them grieve. Paul prayed three times for God to remove his "thorn" and gods answered, "I won't remove the "thorn", but i will give you the grace to endure." May your friends be granted the grace to endure.

Dude...you are my hero...well, you and Triple are ....

but wow...Thanks!

[Marswolf]

My hope is that we can all be buddies and get together and have a great time, regardless of all the other crap that goes on..

Amen....

But I doubt that will happen if there are different religious perspectives being discussed.

My religion is my religion. I don't need to defend it and I don't need to try to change someone else's religious views and tell them that they are wrong. Arguing beliefs is a fool's errand.

[Guest EasilyObsessed]

Sorry to hear about your friends Losing a child is a terrible thing.

In regards to the homosexuality stuff....I fail to see why people are so afraid of homosexuals. Some of the most genuine people I have ever met have been homosexual. I just dont see it as that big of a deal. I have several friends who are women...and I dont worry about them trying to "rape" me if we go out for a drink. In my mind, hanging out with someone who is homosexual is no different. And actually...to be honest, if you want to meet beautiful women, one of the best things you can do is hang out with someone who is homosexual.

[Guest Angel 24/7]

Sorry to hear about your friends Losing a child is a terrible thing.

In regards to the homosexuality stuff....I fail to see why people are so afraid of homosexuals. Some of the most genuine people I have ever met have been homosexual. I just dont see it as that big of a deal. I have several friends who are women...and I dont worry about them trying to "rape" me if we go out for a drink. In my mind, hanging out with someone who is homosexual is no different. And actually...to be honest, if you want to meet beautiful women, one of the best things you can do is hang out with someone who is homosexual.

Yes! I'm a Fag Hag & I agree, you do get to see alot of beautiful men!(n ur case girls) I do love my husband (xdshooter) & I will not give him up for anything! but it is hard not to look when your best friend points them out!

[molonlabetn]

Not to be nit picky but you're mixing Bilbe with tradition. God is indeed three in one and yes Satan can go into heaven (not as a resident) as he is in dominion over this earth. He is not bound in "hell" or ghenna yet. That is why in Revelation God destroys both Heaven and Earth and creates a new Heaven and Earth. I know this is very simplistic and thin, but i don't have 10 pages to dedicate to the topic.

Musicman it is indeed tough to wrestle with these things. As a pastor I think everyone needs to wrestle with these things in order to allow God to lead them through to the truth. Jacob had to wrestle with the angel before he got the blessing. Wrestling/debating is a good thing if you are truly seeking truth.

I lost my 2nd child in a similar way and it was indeed very difficult. but what I had to come to is the realization is that perception is not always reality. Maybe my child would have been healthy, more than likely not and that is why it didn't not live. As i wrestled with it through that Friday night and Saturday, I couldn't get many answers. Sunday rolled around I found myself waiting to preach when the thought cam to me that the first time I would see that child would be in eternity. I had thought that life in this world was the best but God knew that child needed to start life with him.

Why do bad things happen to good people? The theoretical answer is that according to the scriptures, as born sinners we "deserve" nothing good. Only death. So anything good that happens to us is God's grace. With that in mind do experience more of God's goodness or more of his justice? I think if we look objectively we would say we are blessed far more than we are "punished". does that make it easier when it happens, probably not, but such is life.

I can't make people believe as I do and don't believe I have to. I will simply tell and let truth fall where it may. As far as you're friends, just be there and let them grieve. Paul prayed three times for God to remove his "thorn" and gods answered, "I won't remove the "thorn", but i will give you the grace to endure." May your friends be granted the grace to endure.

Well said.

[Guest K71BL]

Probably true. But... Calvinism teaches that everything thats happened in all eternity was ordered and predestined by God. I don't agree with that at all. Nor do I share the Arminiast view. I believe God knows the outcome of all the choices you might make, but He's just as lost as Janet March as to the outcome until you decide SOMEthing.

Now that's a god I want to invest my life in. Some spineless whimpy little jew hoping and wishing that his CREATION would decide the correct things in life. That certainly isn't the same God that created the heavens, earth, YOU.

Create and walk away and have no clue to the outcome? WOW !

You would never use that same grid of thinking with a proposal at work for your boss or client, because you'd have nothing to show/sell, and would soon be homeless. How can we live every day of our lives under the universal truth of God's order and control in the mundane things of life, and not bat an eye at it's universal truth, but as soon as we talk about eternity or religion our logic slips down our spine and is expelled during our next "sit down"?

If He started things in motion, He will keep them in motion, according to His will, and what we "think" about it is a mute point. We are to be changed daily to be more like Him, not us daily changing Him to be more like us.

I was cured of "incurable" cancer at the age of 12. God is good? Yep!

Several years later as a youth pastor, I spent my New years eve, at the bedside of one of my kids, who had fought hard through years of lukemia, come to the end of his battle. God is good? Yep!

I've helped friends through the stillborn process, and wrestled with the why, how, etc. God still good? Yep!

I became sterile from radiation treatment for my cancer and thought I'd never be a dad. Today, my wife and I have four adopted children that rock our world. God good? Yep!

After the adoptions were final, we found that the agency lied to us about the kids physical, emotional and mental health and now have three of our children classified as special needs. This has changed our lives as parents FOREVER. We may never get to see some of our children do simple things, like, go off to college, get married, live on their own. This is so much more than we asked for. God still good? Yep!

I hate the process of life sometimes. It feels cold, cruel, uncaring, and hopeless. But the FACTS are a loving, caring God is here with us to walk through the crap of daily living. God NEVER promised an easy life, NEVER. But he did promise that ALL things work in harmony to a good end for those who love and follow him. You can't promise that if you're as lost as Janet March.

May God protect us from ourselves as we walk this road called life.

Mark

[Mike.357]

Wow, you all got very deep. I like to keep it simple when possible. Don't know if it is possible in this thread.

Nate says

as born sinners we "deserve" nothing good

Why are we born sinners? This is a real issue for me, does not make sense. Is it because the Bible says its so?

Mikey what is the Dake Bible?

I have read The Book. I did like the plain language in it. The Bible is an extremely violent book.

[musicman]

Hey ya'll ... it's kinda' cool to see where this has gone... good discussion.

Mars, I gotta disagree with you. Discussing one's religion with others is not foolish or stupid. How did you get to your personal beliefs? Did you you think them up one day and decide that's what you were going to believe, or were you ideas hammered out in conversations with others, digesting what you've heard, then making your own decisions? I enjoy the challenges and opportunities to grow.

Also, thanks all of you for your prayers for Brien and Amy. Here's a little snapshot of last night:

Brien and Amy are incredible folks. Gensis was born at 5:20 last night, and had passed by 7pm. My wife and I got to the hospital about 6:15 and got to hold her for a bit. She weighed 1lb, 3.9oz and was 12.5" long and had curly, dark brown hair and a cute little unibrow. There was some other church family there, too, about 9-10 of us. About every 15 minutes the nurses came to check her heartbeat, and it was weaker and weaker every time. About 5-10 minutes before she died, Brien, her dad, was holding her and touched her hand with his finger... she gave it a little squeeze. Brien was so excited!! He brought her over to Amy and she did the same thing with her finger. A couple minutes later she gave a little yawn, and I think that was probably her last breath.

What was more incredible was the peace and grace through the sadness in the room. Brien and Amy had about 2 weeks to prepare for all this, as the last month has been full of complications. their prayer has just been that they would get to spend some time with her before she died, and their prayer was answered. They were sad she was gone, but thankful for their time. God knows what He's doing folks.

All of the nurses told us what a blessing Brien and Amy had been to them and to the other families on the floor. (She had been there three weeks.) Their peace about what was happening brought comfort to a lot of folks. Their lives were a ministry in the midst of all the stuff that was going on. God had a purpose for Genesis' life.

Brien and Amy thank you for your payers and support. I tols them I had a bunch of folks on my gun-board praying for them, and they thought that was sooooo cool!

[molonlabetn]

'Sin', being simple a religious term for a violation of morality... a 'Sinner' is one who immoral or not perfectly moral.

How I would take that, is there is no person who is capable of consistently acting upon their natural empathy for others, and denying themselves selfishness... add to that any religious requirements deemed appropriate, but even the simplest definition excludes 100% of the human race.

So, yes, all humans are incapable of being perfectly moral, ie 'sinners'.