FBI Returning to 9mm

[KKing]

the weak azz 9mm and .223

I do love silly statements like this. It's what makes the "caliber war" threads so entertaining.


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[DaveTN]

The Miami shootout is no more relevant than any of the hundreds of other LE shootouts that are studied.

If you are outgunned; you are outgunned. The Bank of America shootout is proof of that.

Every individual is purchasing their weapons and deciding on caliber based on their abilities for any given situation. Shooting unarmed humans with most any caliber will make them stop whatever it is they are doing and you will have their full attention. If that is your goal any caliber will achieve it.

On the other hand, if your probable most likely scenario is an armed attacker and your goal is to immediately make him unable or unwilling to fire his weapon at you; caliber choices become pretty important.

How do you think you will perform? I personally get a kick out of the “shot placement” crowd. However their message is entirely true; if you can place a shot precisely where you want it you can drop a bad guy instantly with a .22. Of course unless you have experienced that first hand you have no idea how you will do. My first shooting situation was in the dark with a man pulling a gun on me. I was a member of the PD pistol team and was an excellent shot. But in those few seconds I learned that I am not qualified to me a member of the “shot placement” crowd.

Your personally experiences will help you choose, but if you don’t have any you have to rely on whatever experience you have available to you. Check documentation. If someone is telling you what it’s like to face a gunman on the street that is trying to take your life; he has to have faced a gunman on the street trying to take his life. You can’t create that adrenaline rush in training. There are plenty of true life stories out there and sometimes the people are willing to talk about them.

Caliber choices of Police Departments or even the FBI aren’t really good indicators of what you may want to carry. If you can’t handle a large caliber, you can’t bring it back on target quickly, or the weapon is bigger than you want to carry; don’t use it.

But saying that a 9mm is as good a choice as .40S&W, .45ACP or .357Mag for everyone is just ridiculous. And just as ridiculous is saying a .40S&W is a better round for someone that can’t handle the recoil without limp wristing and having a failure to fire during a time when that failure could cost you your life.

The weapon you carry is a direct reflection on how valuable you think your life is, or how likely you truly think you will be to need a weapon.

[East_TN_Patriot]

So messed up. The Miami shootout was based on .38 spl and the .40 is a notoriously poor body armor penetrator. 9mm on the other hand has always penetrated body armor and light armor, which is why the military uses it for their side arms ammo.
Typical government ignorance and misinformation they use to make decisions.

 

The 9mm is not going to easily penetrate properly rated ballistic armor.  Since the early 1990s most armor has been rated to stop the 9mm because it is so common.  FMJ ball ammo is a bit tougher than the hollow point stuff, but I can attest from personal experience from testing various brands of body armor for my former police agency back in the early 2000s, I have not seen a body armor panel yet that wouldn't stop a 9mm projectile.

[DaveTN]

I do love silly statements like this. It's what makes the "caliber war" threads so entertaining.

We all know there is no perfect handgun and no perfect caliber for everyone. So the caliber discussions will continue for those that want info.
Thanks for your addition to the conversation.

[DaveTN]

The 9mm is not going to easily penetrate properly rated ballistic armor.  Since the early 1990s most armor has been rated to stop the 9mm because it is so common.  FMJ ball ammo is a bit tougher than the hollow point stuff, but I can attest from personal experience from testing various brands of body armor for my former police agency back in the early 2000s, I have not seen a body armor panel yet that wouldn't stop a 9mm projectile.

I was a cop in the late 70’s early 80’s. The most common vest was a Second Chance. It would stop a 9mm back then. Edited November 7, 2015 by DaveTN

[I am Groot!]

I am too cynical and take little credence in the expressed reasons for a switch in ammunition or firearms by our government. There are far too many factors that are political and people with agendas that we will never know about. Everyone knows someone on the inside that claims to knows the "real reason" these changes are made.

All I know is I have sold every Glock I have owed and still have my M&P pro in 9. All of them have worked flawlessly, but I do not like the way glocks feel in my hand. I am not a Glock hater, but I love shooting my M&P. Edited November 7, 2015 by Odessa7979

[FTE]

So messed up. The Miami shootout was based on .38 spl and the .40 is a notoriously poor body armor penetrator. 9mm on the other hand has always penetrated body armor and light armor, which is why the military uses it for their side arms ammo.
Typical government ignorance and misinformation they use to make decisions.

I'm sorry......would you mind providing some days on the concept that 9mm penetrates body armor??? That's a new one....


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[FTE]

So the feds could not handle the 10mm and got the 40?

Now they cant even handle the 40?

Irony...

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You ought to read the FBI report.....


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[FTE]

Is there any gun on the market now that will meet all their requirements? Or will this be a custom built gun?

Several. Expect to see the Sig P320 at the top of that list.


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[FTE]

I don’t know why this surprises anyone; this is the same government that took 45ACP and .308 away from our troops and gave them the weak azz 9mm and .223.

As far as handguns; no government agency should be able to buy anything from a foreign manufacturer unless there is no American made product that can meet the requirements. My own dollars don’t go to Glock and I don’t want my tax dollars going to them either. The M&P is a proven performer; it should hands down get the nod.

"American made" is a thin rope to walk. Sig, Glock, Beretta.....all American made friend.


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[DaveTN]

"American made" is a thin rope to walk. Sig, Glock, Beretta.....all American made friend.


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Not really hard to understand, I used the word manufacturer. Glock shipping parts in here and assembling them isn’t manufacturing, Sig I don’t know about, I’ve never had the desire to buy one so I haven’t checked, Beretta does manufacture guns here, they have Machinists, Gunsmith’s and Machines here. However they are an Italian company and don’t really have anything I am interested in owning. They are helping the economy in Tennessee and if they made something here I was interested in I could justify it. But what are they going to make I can’t get from S&W or Ruger?

I make no apologies for buying from companies that support American manufacturing. All the financial experts for years have said if our manufacturing base doesn’t recover; we are doomed financially. I expect the Politicians I vote for to have ideas that will help our economy. The least I can do is to do my part when I can.

I can’t buy everything American Made, my computers, TV’s and Cameras are foreign made. But my guns are Smith & Wesson, Ruger, Kahr, Remington and Mossberg; these companies can supply me with the finest guns in the world; I have no need for foreign made guns.

Our Politicians in Washington are making all this noise about helping American manufacturing; and it’s all BS if they buy guns from foreign manufacturers and take jobs away from American when we make a better product here. America companies make the best guns in the world and it should be a crime for the government to turn their backs on them.

[FTE]

Yes, yes. And when American companies stop hiding behind the "Made in America" tag, and start building quality products....people buy them. I buy the best products I can find.....it's too bad Anerican companies don't make more of them.

Ruger.........what Bill Ruger did to our 2A rights should never be forgotten. Doesn't matter that he's gone.


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[DaveTN]

Yes, yes. And when American companies stop hiding behind the "Made in America" tag, and start building quality products....people buy them. I buy the best products I can find.....it's too bad Anerican companies don't make more of them.

American companies aren’t hiding behind anything. They make some of the best products in the world. They may not always be the cheapest, but when they don’t get to take advantage of cheap labor, have OSHA and the EPA to deal with (a cost most of their competitors don’t have) and are still able to hold costs competitive; they deserve our support.

Most anything you look at also has an American manufacturer in the bottom feeder market. If you are going to buy junk; buy American made junk.
 

Ruger.........what Bill Ruger did to our 2A rights should never be forgotten. Doesn't matter that he's gone.

We should penalize the American people and the American workers at Ruger because one of the founders that has been dead for 15 years suggested to congress they outlaw high capacity magazines instead of outlawing the guns?

[Smith]

I'm sorry......would you mind providing some days on the concept that 9mm penetrates body armor??? That's a new one....


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Yeah, read the military reports from when they adopted 9mm. It's one of the reasons they cited the 9mm. I should have said penetrates armor better than x and penetrates armor, glass, and metal better than x. No handgun caliber will penetrate modern II or III body armor, but that is not what was being discussed when the military adopted the 9mm, which was the context of the OP and my response.

[DaveTN]

Yeah, read the military reports from when they adopted 9mm.

Link em' so we can.

[leroy]

Folks...

This aint about a better caliber, nor a better pistol, nor better performance; it's about spendin mine and your money for stuff these folks don't need... This is crony capitalism (...really crony fascism...) at work...

 

When a large gubmt bureaucracy makes a change, somebody gets paid... Think about it...A new pistola... Somebody get's paid... New ammo...Somebody gets paid...

 

All major calibers are very effective in the hands of thoroughly trained and determined gunmen (...and women...)...  This is about spendin money with the right folks and payin off the right "insiders"...It's payola for the patrician class of bureaucrats...

 

Somethin to think about... It's endemic to both parties.. It will be almost impossible to fix...

 

sneerin leroy

[CommsNBombs]

Folks...
This aint about a better caliber, nor a better pistol, nor better performance; it's about spendin mine and your money for stuff these folks don't need... This is crony capitalism (...really crony fascism...) at work...

When a large gubmt bureaucracy makes a change, somebody gets paid... Think about it...A new pistola... Somebody get's paid... New ammo...Somebody gets paid...

All major calibers are very effective in the hands of thoroughly trained and determined gunmen (...and women...)... This is about spendin money with the right folks and payin off the right "insiders"...It's payola for the patrician class of bureaucrats...

Somethin to think about... It's endemic to both parties.. It will be almost impossible to fix...

sneerin leroy

Hooyah America on that one.

F--k the Feds anyway.

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[Smith]

Link em' so we can.

Haha, do you own homework. :) It's been too long ago and I don't care. 

 

My original point was that the military and Feds tend to choose calibers based on certain criteria that is questionable at best. That leads me to believe that it's not about the so-called data as they claim and cite, but other things that they are afraid to admit, like cost, contracts, etc. I simply pointed out the Feds switched from 9mm to .40 based on the Miami shootout "data" and are now switching back based on some new "data". I think both are red herrings. Evidently the Feds get caught up in the caliber war "data" just like forum posters do.

[leroy]

Haha, do you own homework. :) It's been too long ago and I don't care. 

 

My original point was that the military and Feds tend to choose calibers based on certain criteria that is questionable at best. That leads me to believe that it's not about the so-called data as they claim and cite, but other things that they are afraid to admit, like cost, contracts, etc. I simply pointed out the Feds switched from 9mm to .40 based on the Miami shootout "data" and are now switching back based on some new "data". I think both are red herrings. Evidently the Feds get caught up in the caliber war "data" just like forum posters do.

 

Smith...

The point is well taken, and you are exactly right... It aint about data, it aint about research, it's about payola man...!.

Everything is for sale...

 

leroy

[FTE]

Yeah, read the military reports from when they adopted 9mm. It's one of the reasons they cited the 9mm. I should have said penetrates armor better than x and penetrates armor, glass, and metal better than x. No handgun caliber will penetrate modern II or III body armor, but that is not what was being discussed when the military adopted the 9mm, which was the context of the OP and my response.

Can't find it. Surely you have a link.


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[FTE]

American companies aren’t hiding behind anything. They make some of the best products in the world. They may not always be the cheapest, but when they don’t get to take advantage of cheap labor, have OSHA and the EPA to deal with (a cost most of their competitors don’t have) and are still able to hold costs competitive; they deserve our support.

Most anything you look at also has an American manufacturer in the bottom feeder market. If you are going to buy junk; buy American made junk.

We should penalize the American people and the American workers at Ruger because one of the founders that has been dead for 15 years suggested to congress they outlaw high capacity magazines instead of outlawing the guns?

Yes.


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[CommsNBombs]

Yes.


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You are just a regular ray of sunshine man.

So - what is your take on it?

Government corruption? Divine intervention? 40 Cal Fanboy?

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[FTE]

You are just a regular ray of sunshine man.

So - what is your take on it?

Government corruption? Divine intervention? 40 Cal Fanboy?

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On the FBI switch? My take is that the FBI report specifies, in outrageous detail, exactly why they are switching. It's well rationalized, logical, and is something private sector trainers have known for 10+ years.


Conspiracy theory? I suppose that if someone truly believes that switching calibers after 20+ years is some sort of payola scheme, there's noting logical to be said to convince them otherwise.

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[GlockSpock]

If switching to something from something could possibly be putting money in the pocket of buddies, couldn't sticking with something for 20 years also be putting money in the pocket of buddies?


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[leroy]

 

If switching to something from something could possibly be putting money in the pocket of buddies, couldn't sticking with something for 20 years also be putting money in the pocket of buddies?


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RE:   The posts above by FTE (... #48...) and CZ9 (...#49...)....

 

The number 49 post...

 

No... The ammo guys make out no matter what... Ammo consumption stays the same assuming personnel levels stay the same.... The gun manufacturers sell new guns to replace the old guns specified by the agency...

 

Always remember these truths: ... Not buyin somethin always saves money... Buying something new always costs money... It works at your house, my house, and the gubmt's house... It's a universal truth...

 

RE:  The "new pistola thing"...

I've got a Smith model 13 three inch heavy barrel... It was the "new" FBI gun in the late seventies... I like it a lot... I remember them changing from the Smith 13 to the 9mm, then settlin on the 40 after playin with the 10mm, now back to the 9mm... That's a change of 4 pistolas over the course of 35 years... About every nine years, someone gets paid... 

 

RE:... Where does the money for new gubmt purchases come from...?

The government never saves money, they spend money... Where do they get the money...?   From you and me of course...

 

The number 48 post...

 

RE:... As to the "detailed rationale" thing...

 Of course they gave a detailed rationale..It's a standard requirement that gubmt and most big businesses use to justify new purchases.... The "detailed rationale" was to bolster the specs narrowly enough to get the product they want to get... I used to make a pretty good livin providing "detailed rationale" for capital equipment and construction services contracts... That's how they do it... 

 

Think about it... It aint a conspiracy theory on my part as some have opined; it's a change from one caliber to another that is one mm different... .355 to .401.... The ballistics are strikingly similar...

 

Again; it ain't about a better pistola, it ain't about better "terminal ballistics", it ain't about "advances in bullet technology"; it's about someone gettin paid with your money...

 

Your mileage may vary... 

 

leroy

Edited November 10, 2015 by leroy