Minimum Gun Skills

[The Rabbi]

Just because I like to stir the pot:

What are the minimal skills someone ought to have to go armed or even have a gun at home?

My own list is:

-Ability to get all shots on an 8" pie plate at 20 feet (that's actually an NRA standard)

-Ability to load and unload the gun without looking at it.

-Ability to clear a malfunction in a timely manner.

-Ability to manipulate all controls (e.g. safety, slide release) under pressure.

-Ability to fire from retention.

[TGO David]

To have a gun at home? Minimum standard = to be an American citizen.

To carry it, I agree with your post.

[The Rabbi]

Let me clarify:

A guy comes to you. He doesn't really know anything about guns and he isnt into shooting, doesnt have the time, etc.

But he feels like he needs one for protection. He wants you to teach him everything he needs to know so he will be safe either at home or on the street. So what skills do you aim for? (I am assuming the basic rules of gun handling were already covered.)

[Guest DonRickles]

Preface: I believe the right to keep and bear arms is absolute.

To have a gun at home? Minimum standard = to be an American citizen.

Without a felony conviction.

As far as for carry. I for one would not be against a mandatory continuing education program for carry permit holders. After all police officers have to regularly qualify with their sidearm. There are many permit holders out there that cannot meet Rabbi's minimum requirements. These people are gonna be in a whole world of trouble if they ever have to use their gun for real. The next time you go to the range actually pay attention to some of the shooters around you. Many standing still cannot hit an 8 inch circle at 10 feet much less 20. I was at the range not to awful long ago when a couple came in with a Ruger Sp101 revolver they started shooting at the 7 yard line and emptied the chamber in their gun 9 times(alternating him/her) and had not hit the target once. They moved up to the 3 yard line and emptied the gun 4 more times before they finally hit the bottom left corner of the paper. I was in the lane next to them and struck up a polite conversation with them. She was the daughter of a woman who works for one of the local "Firearms Schools" and was a permit holder. She told me she had been through at least 4 different "tactical' gun classes and was just there to keep her "skills" up. If she ever shoots at anyone I feel sorry for anyone standing near them. To me the current requirements are lax. Now before anyone flames me please read the preface I do believe the RKBA is absolute. I just think if you are gonna exercise that right you should be held to a higher standard.

[Guest DonRickles]

Rabbi you added your post while I was writing so I'll redirect. To your basic requirements I would include knowledge of Cooper's 4 Basic Rules of Gun Safety. Other than that yours sounds about right.

[The Rabbi]

Right, I didnt mean a legal requirement. I think people ought to be able to buy and carry guns with very minimal restrictions.

I meant as a recommended skill level for someone.

[TGO David]

Without a felony conviction.

No, not even that. Felony should probably = no carry, but should not = inability to defend yourself in your own home. Period.

There are plenty of people out there who have made some stupid decisions and ended up with non-violent felony convictions against them. White collar crimes, for example. Should those people be stripped of their right to protect themselves and their family after they serve their time?

Again, if we're talking about carrying then I can see the problem especially if it's a felony conviction for a violent crime. But a man's home is his castle and he shouldn't be deprived of his ability to defend it.

Just my opinion.

[dunndw]

I would agree...but if I can meet those requirements, then I'm issued a modified carry permit, more of a certification where I can carry anywhere without restrictions.

[The Rabbi]

No, not even that. Felony should probably = no carry, but should not = inability to defend yourself in your own home. Period.

There are plenty of people out there who have made some stupid decisions and ended up with non-violent felony convictions against them. White collar crimes, for example. Should those people be stripped of their right to protect themselves and their family after they serve their time?

Again, if we're talking about carrying then I can see the problem especially if it's a felony conviction for a violent crime. But a man's home is his castle and he shouldn't be deprived of his ability to defend it.

Just my opinion.

Convicted felons can already apply to have their rights restored.

No one is prohibiting them from defending their homes. They just cant do it with guns.

[TGO David]

I would agree...but if I can meet those requirements, then I'm issued a modified carry permit, more of a certification where I can carry anywhere without restrictions.

That's crazy talk there. Don't you know that while the state trusts you to carry your firearm most places, as soon as you set foot onto school property, a municipal park or a restaurant that serves alcohol, you instantly become someone who shouldn't be trusted anymore?

[TGO David]

Convicted felons can already apply to have their rights restored.

I take it you've never tried to have that done. It doesn't happen very easily.

No one is prohibiting them from defending their homes. They just cant do it with guns.

I know you're being trite but I think anyone who argues that angle should be forced to use a baseball bat to defend themselves while I'm shooting at them.

[The Rabbi]

It doesnt happen easily nor should it. That's one of the penalties of being a felon. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Besides, isn't defense more a function of mindset than equipment anyway?

[dariks]

I was at the range not to awful long ago when a couple came in with a Ruger Sp101 revolver they started shooting at the 7 yard line and emptied the chamber in their gun 9 times(alternating him/her) and had not hit the target once. They moved up to the 3 yard line and emptied the gun 4 more times before they finally hit the bottom left corner of the paper.

That's just sad! My wife, who doesn't even like guns and on her very first range trip, was able to hit the silhouette at 15ft every time. She may not be an expert marksman (and neither am I), but she can at least hit the target.

[Guest canynracer]

practice makes perfect. I am sure all of us were not born marksman...question is, when you guys are at the range and see these things and people struggling, does anyone offer assistance, maybe a quick word of advice. Some people are reluctant to ask for help (pride, dont have the money for classes ect.) I am just saying that although I do think that people should have the basics, buying a gun for home protection is the first step.

Maybe Rabbi and other dealers can work a deal out with the local range to give a couple free range times for all new gun purchases, not everyone, just the folks that admit no experience... and maybe a free 15 min with one of the range staff with the new gun. It really is good business for both the gun dealer and the range...like sending your kids off to the first day of school...lol...bottom line, it would make all feel a lot better about selling the gun, and the purchasing.

not that I am perfect, just maybe some freindly suggestions so the new gun owner/shppter doesnt kill one of us!

[towerclimber37]

In Montana, the State Legislature is passing laws so that folks with domestic Violence charges can have them expunged in order to have their RBKA restored.

The BATF as declared that they will NOT recognize that legislation.

In one fell swoop, the ATF has declared that they can nullify the amendment X as well as a few articles of the Constitution.

Good luck with that expungement.

as for Minimal skills.....

- Prove on a yearly basis that you can satisfy the state requirements where marksmanship is concerned.

- Demonstrate manual of arms and recite Col. Coopers 4 laws.

[Urse]

You forfeit your rights when you break the law. If it is important to you to be able to defend yourself then do not commit a felony. It sounds like a baseball bat would be sufficient against the couple with the Ruger SP101. Besides you can always follow G. Gordons lead and make sure you wife has a great gun collection(after all you are already a criminal). As far as the requirements I agree with Rabbi & Don.

[towerclimber37]

You forfeit your rights when you break the law.

ok, scenario here.

A guy marries a woman. she's bad, he's naieve. his job takes him out of town frequently.

he gets home one day and finds his home has been looted, his car is gone and there are officers waiting for him with a domestic violence dispute.

he's put in jail for a few days until he can get a lawyer and make bail.

within hours after he gets out, he's visited again by the officers with ANOTHER DV complaint. while they're arresting him a 911 call comes in with his wifes' voice saying "hes' hitting me!! ow ow ow!" begging them to come arrest the fellow that they're putting into custody AT THAT TIME.

These are true events. I know the fella. They made domestic violence disputes a felony. I think THAT is horse crap. It keeps people from being able to protect themselves.

[Guest DonRickles]

Has he been convicted of DV? Being charged and being convicted are two different things.

[towerclimber37]

nope, he wasn't convicted. but all that goes into his "record". the atf has a tendency to deny expungement of any and all records.

after he made bail the second time, he hired a P.I. to find her and get pics.

when the divorce hearing came, she was found out.

but how many guys don't have the presence of mind to do that and end up getting railroaded?

how many women fight back only to be put in jail with a DV conviction, unable to protect themselves from a predator?

[Guest DonRickles]

Wow that is F...ed up. However he still is able to own and carry a firearm. I have a dear friend who was convicted of a white collar crime(money laundering). His dad is a collector(black powder to Class III) and was going to leave a huge collection to him. Unfortunately as a convicted felon he cannot legally own any of them now. Even though he is a good friend I have no sympathy. His choice his consequence. There will always be a grey area to this issue........bummer.

[The Rabbi]

There's a general principle that "bad cases make bad laws." This is a good example of that principle.

[Guest GregRN]

I heard a story from a physician that I work with. He tells of a guy in Texas that was four-wheeling in his truck and happened across the border without knowing it. The Federales stopped him and arrested him for possession of a firearm (legally carried in Texas). Now the guy can not legally purchase or carry a firearm in this country, because he has a felony conviction in a foreign country.

[Guest jackdog]

Ban the ATF oh and the IRS as well

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Back to original topic.

Here are two drills that will work the minimum skills.

Drill 1.

At 7 yards at an 8" target. Pistol loaded with 6 live rounds and a dummy round a spare mag on belt (or wherever you carry it) loaded with 3 live rounds.You will fire 9 total rounds.

At the buzzer step off the "X", draw and fire until the gun goes "click", clear the malfunction as you take another side step, fire the remaining rounds, sidestep again as you reload and fire the 3 rounds in the spare mag. All hits must be in the 8" circle to count. Time limit- 15 seconds. Pass or fail.

Drill 2.

Pistol loaded with 2 rounds, 2 spare mags loaded with 2 rounds each.

At the buzzer draw, step off the X, fire 2 shots, do an emergency reload as you sidestep again, fire the 2 rounds, step again as you do another emergency reload, fire last 2 shots. All hits must be in the 8" circle. Time limit- 15 seconds. Pass or fail.

These drills work the BASIC skills someone SHOULD have a grasp of if they are going to responsibly carry a pistol on the street. It tests your ability to

A.Get off the X (out of the way so you hopefully don't get shot cut or stabbed) as you go for your pistol.

B.Get your pistol out.

C.Hit what you shoot at.

D.clear a malfunction.

E. reload

F. get back on target and hit it again.

These are really the CORE skills to have to fight with a pistol. These drills work those skills and it only takes 15 rounds.No real "scoring". Either the hits are all there and you make the time or you don't. If you can do these drills in the time limits and make the hits you are far and away better than the average guy on the street. Obviously the faster the better, but 15 seconds per drill is a good baseline or something to work toward if you are not there yet.

[The Rabbi]

Here's where I disagree. These are not minimal skills at all. If someone wants to acquire them, great.

But with the average gun fight over in 5 seconds or less a 15 second routine, and one that depends on a lot of small muscle coordination, is hardly going to be used.

Further, with the average gun fight at 5 feet or less, shooting at 7 yards is nice, but not a necessity.

And I would like to see how many gun fights involved 2 mag changes.