What teachers unions are really all about

[Guest nicemac]

"It is not because we care about children and it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child. NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power.â€

From National Education Association’s retiring top lawyer, Bob Chanin, speaking at the NEA’s annual meeting in July, 2009:

Weasel Zippers » Blog Archive » Flashback: Teachers Union Chief Says “It’s Not Because We Care About Children – It’s About Power”…

[daddyo]

The truth will ALWAYS come out.

[Guest nicemac]

Does anyone believe the Wisconsin teachers are "doing it for the children?"

[mav]

Everytime I hear the phrase "It's for the children" come out of a politician's or political activist's mouth, my initial thought it always, "Bulls**t."

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Unions = communism.

Actually, mav, every time I hear that from any source I become nauseated.

Politicians included. Take care of their own children and leave mine alone!

Edited February 24, 2011 by 6.8 AR

[Lumber_Jack]

i love how "due process, employee rights and collective bargaining" are all in the same sentence. They act as if school teachers are an opressed people. They have the same rights as every other red blooded American, if you don't like it get another job. I appreciate their work, but to buy in to the fact that the public tax payer has to fund your salary for 30years AFTER you quit working is ludicrous. why can't they just offer a 401K matching plan like every other buisness ,if you're lucky (some offer nothing). I can stomach collective bargaining for salaries, but pensions is unacceptable. Not to mention in some states union dues are automatically deducted and sent to the union, which in turn a precentage is used to fund political campaigns. How is that not money laundering, when you're a polician appropriating a budget knowing that a percentage is coming right back to your pocket?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It's also an interesting battle: collective bargaining against the taxpayer. Why should the taxpayer

ever be forced to deal with a union about anyone's salary and benefits? Something just doesn't

smell right. It's kind of like a politician is pushing his responsibility out of the picture.

Then again, it's all for the children, isn't it?

[Steelharp]

While I agree with everything said here in the thread, I think we have to be careful about misreading what's in that link, and allowing it to get twisted anymore than we would want anything we say twisted. Reading comprehension is so important. It says, “Despite what some among us would like to believe it is not because of our creative ideas. It is not because of the merit of our positions. It is not because we care about children and it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child. NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power.”

Now, let me try to clarify the points with a bit of inserted text: “Despite what some among us would like to believe it is not because of our creative ideas (that we are effective advocates). It is not because of the merit of our positions (that we are effective advocates). It is not because we care about children (that we are effective advocates) and it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child (that we are effective advocates). NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power.”

[DRM]

Unions = communism.

I disagree. Unions are a necessary agent in the absence of reasonable governmental regulations. But when the people - through the government - put reasonable laws in place to protect workers, unions shift from serving the people, to simply serving themselves (i.e. - they exist just to keep existing).

[Daniel]

They get a pension because they make jack ****. My wife teachs elementary school in Williamson county. She has a masters degree from Vandy and I make just as much with no college.

You can say that is her problem for becoming a teacher but look at what you are saying.

Who do you want teaching your kids? Someone with a community college degree or someone with the best education available in the state? My wife loves teaching and she is arguably one of the best at her school which is arguably the best in the County/State. I think she deserves to be paid way more than she gets.

How many of you would like to spend every workday with 20+ of your kids?

[Steelharp]

How many of you would like to spend every workday with 20+ of your kids?

I could barely deal with my own 7, thankyouverymuch.

[Guest nicemac]

They get a pension because they make jack ****. My wife teachs elementary school in Williamson county. She has a masters degree from Vandy and I make just as much with no college.

You can say that is her problem for becoming a teacher but look at what you are saying.

Who do you want teaching your kids? Someone with a community college degree or someone with the best education available in the state? My wife loves teaching and she is arguably one of the best at her school which is arguably the best in the County/State. I think she deserves to be paid way more than she gets.

How many of you would like to spend every workday with 20+ of your kids?

This issue is not at about the teacher's salary or even their benefits. This is about extortion of the government (us) by a union (NEA). The government (in the case of Wisconsin) is out of money and will bankrupt the state to not lose a small percentage of their benefits (which will still be better than private sector jobs in the same area).

[Guest nicemac]

I disagree. Unions are a necessary agent in the absence of reasonable governmental regulations. But when the people - through the government - put reasonable laws in place to protect workers, unions shift from serving the people, to simply serving themselves (i.e. - they exist just to keep existing).

A union is a perfect example of communism in action.

World English Dictionary

communism (ˈkɒmjʊˌnɪzəm)

— n

1. advocacy of a classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community.

I couldn't say it any clearer.

[Lumber_Jack]

They get a pension because they make jack ****. My wife teachs elementary school in Williamson county. She has a masters degree from Vandy and I make just as much with no college.

You can say that is her problem for becoming a teacher but look at what you are saying.

Who do you want teaching your kids? Someone with a community college degree or someone with the best education available in the state? My wife loves teaching and she is arguably one of the best at her school which is arguably the best in the County/State. I think she deserves to be paid way more than she gets.

How many of you would like to spend every workday with 20+ of your kids?

So get them a higher salary. I'm all for them being adaquately paid, but the system is going broke because we are an ever growing population needing more and more teachers, and if we contiue to pay pension plans where is it gonna stop. If you had all the money your paid in union dues in her career, invested in a matching 401k, you would be far and above better off without the tax payers paying the bill.

Im underpayed too, my wife is in school and I dont get a pension. Im not trying to portray an "its not fair" attitude. I want you and your wife to get all you can possibly get your hands on, but if we have to continually raise taxes to support the system. They system needs changing.

Now the transistion is the problem, we cant just cut off those who were promised a pension, or have worked half their career without a 401k. But to just continue as-is is going to be detrimental to the states budgets.

[peejman]

While I agree with everything said here in the thread, I think we have to be careful about misreading what's in that link, and allowing it to get twisted anymore than we would want anything we say twisted. Reading comprehension is so important. It says, “Despite what some among us would like to believe it is not because of our creative ideas. It is not because of the merit of our positions. It is not because we care about children and it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child. NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power.”

Now, let me try to clarify the points with a bit of inserted text: “Despite what some among us would like to believe it is not because of our creative ideas (that we are effective advocates). It is not because of the merit of our positions (that we are effective advocates). It is not because we care about children (that we are effective advocates) and it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child (that we are effective advocates). NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power.”

Amazing what a little context can do.....

I disagree. Unions are a necessary agent in the absence of reasonable governmental regulations. But when the people - through the government - put reasonable laws in place to protect workers, unions shift from serving the people, to simply serving themselves (i.e. - they exist just to keep existing).

Amen.

They get a pension because they make jack ****. My wife teachs elementary school in Williamson county. She has a masters degree from Vandy and I make just as much with no college.

You can say that is her problem for becoming a teacher but look at what you are saying.

Who do you want teaching your kids? Someone with a community college degree or someone with the best education available in the state? My wife loves teaching and she is arguably one of the best at her school which is arguably the best in the County/State. I think she deserves to be paid way more than she gets.

How many of you would like to spend every workday with 20+ of your kids?

Amen again. People who don't live with a teacher have no idea how hard they work. They don't see the nights spent grading papers, the weekends spent at various school functions, the frustrating phone calls with clueless parents who don't give a damn, and the stress of dealing with 100+ kids all day long. All they see is the 6 weeks off in the summer and 2 weeks at Christmas and think it's a cake job.

My mom taught high school math for 30 years. I made more at my first job out of college than she did after teaching for 20+ years. There's something wrong with that.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

They get a pension because they make jack ****. My wife teachs elementary school in Williamson county. She has a masters degree from Vandy and I make just as much with no college.

You can say that is her problem for becoming a teacher but look at what you are saying.

Who do you want teaching your kids? Someone with a community college degree or someone with the best education available in the state? My wife loves teaching and she is arguably one of the best at her school which is arguably the best in the County/State. I think she deserves to be paid way more than she gets.

How many of you would like to spend every workday with 20+ of your kids?

Daniel,

People get pensions because they are negotiated

for, not because they make more or less. You take

this type of discussion as an affront to your wife,

who I am confident is an exceptional teacher, and compare her lack of a salary to yours(?). Could she

not get a higher paying job somewhere else?

You love your wife and I appreciate that, but that

has nothing to do what is deserved and where it

comes from.

What is deserved is measured by what an individual

can negotiate by trading value with another. Unions

attempt( and succeed) to negotiate groups values

without trading fairly. Standards are lowered and

your wife may be actually thrown in with less than

qualified participants.

I would rather think of my wife as exceptional in her

abilities, thereby making her more valuable, instead

of saying all teachers are exceptional and worth

more when we know that isn't the case. This isn't about your wife.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gregintenn]

Twenty years ago, I spent twelve years in school listening to teachers bitching about not making enough money. I'm sure you all did as well. It is a fool, in my opinion, who goes to school to be a teacher, armed with this knowledge, gets a job teaching, and then acts surprised that it isn't a high paying job. I'm not a teacher. I don't want to be a teacher. But if I were to become a teacher, I'd have a plan to deal with the fact that I'd have a low income. Good teachers are cutting their own throats supporting the TEA and the NEA. They are holding the good teachers back. A good teacher is vastly underpaid.

[Guest nicemac]

Jobs pay what the market rate for that skill is. If nobody was willing to take a teacher's job for a teacher's salary, salaries would go up. It would be worth more.

If you draw from the public coffers, you have got to tighten up your belt just like the rest of us have over the past year or two r risk being unemployed.

Good teacher salary article:

NJ Teacher who complained to Gov. Chris Christie she deserved $83k actually makes $86k | Mark Hemingway | Beltway Confidential | Washington Examiner

Every complaining teacher should be forced to watch this video:

YouTube - Chris Christie Answers Teacher's Question at Raritan Town Hall

[mav]

While I agree with everything said here in the thread, I think we have to be careful about misreading what's in that link, and allowing it to get twisted anymore than we would want anything we say twisted. Reading comprehension is so important. It says, “Despite what some among us would like to believe it is not because of our creative ideas. It is not because of the merit of our positions. It is not because we care about children and it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child. NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power.â€

Now, let me try to clarify the points with a bit of inserted text: “Despite what some among us would like to believe it is not because of our creative ideas (that we are effective advocates). It is not because of the merit of our positions (that we are effective advocates). It is not because we care about children (that we are effective advocates) and it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child (that we are effective advocates). NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power.â€

All of that was very much understood. My original comment was not directed at the article, which actually states the truth about the NEA's advocacy. I just made a comment emphasizing my contempt for the phrase "It's for the children," which we hear so much in political discourse.

Edited February 24, 2011 by mav

[gregintenn]

I was just informed that our school is dismissing at 2pm because of rain. These people are NOT interested in educating our children. They are interrested in satisfying minimum governmental requirements and fund raising. You ain't getting much sumpathy from me until some of this crap is dealt with.

Edited February 24, 2011 by gregintenn

[Guest Old goat]

I know lots of folks in the couple of years who have had to take pay cuts so their employer could survive and they could keep their job, myself included. I know lots of teachers, good ones and not so good ones. I don't know any teachers who took pay or benefit cuts, most got raises each year(actually all of them, some more than others). The not so good ones got the same raises.

[Guest nicemac]

Disclosure:

We homeschool. My oldest graduated in May of 2010 and is now in college. He never attended a single day of government school. His teacher received no formal salary, no benefits and schooled all five kids even when it snowed. His test scores were stellar and he is excelling as a college freshman.

[gregintenn]

Disclosure:

We homeschool. My oldest graduated in May of 2010 and is now in college. He never attended a single day of government school. His teacher received no formal salary, no benefits and schooled all five kids even when it snowed. His test scores were stellar and he is excelling as a college freshman.

All that without the benefit of a union? :eek:Get outta here!!!

[Guest nicemac]

I know lots of folks in the couple of years who have had to take pay cuts so their employer could survive and they could keep their job, myself included. I know lots of teachers, good ones and not so good ones. I don't know any teachers who took pay or benefit cuts, most got raises each year(actually all of them, some more than others). The not so good ones got the same raises.

My company had layoffs and salary freezes the past three years. Oh, and our insurance went up 12% last year and 8% this year.

Edited February 24, 2011 by nicemac

[DRM]

A union is a perfect example of communism in action.

World English Dictionary

communism (ˈkɒmjʊˌnɪzəm)

— n

1. advocacy of a classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community.

I couldn't say it any clearer.

Unions would never exist in a communal, or communist society for two main reason:

1. There would be no need for an intermediary between the people and the government because a communist government would have already distributed wealth and workload equally among the people.

2. Unions are by their very nature functions of a class system. They exist solely for the purpose of promoting and benefiting *their* class (union members) to the highest status they can possibly negotiate, without regard for anyone else. They are by definition class advocates.

I see how someone could want to vilify unions - especially in their current form - however equating them to communism is barking up the wrong tree.