Man flashes gun while asking for money...thoughts?

[DaveTN]

Can non-LEOs do this? I was under the impression that non-LEOs are either defending ourselves with deadly force if we fire or we're brandishing if we don't.

Yes you can do it, as long as you are justified. It’s been argued to death here but threatening to use deadly force is not the same as using it. There is no such thing as brandishing. If you threaten someone with a gun and are not justified; you would be charged with aggravated assault; a felony.

People need to know he law. You being scared and telling the Judge you were scared is not a good plan. If you are in front of a Judge or jury there is an 80% chance you are going to prison.

Edited August 12, 2011 by DaveTN

[Guest skinner]

I would love to see fallguy weigh in on this one.

[Farman]

Citizens arrest???

[Caster]

Citizens arrest???

Haaa!

[Fallguy]

I would love to see fallguy weigh in on this one.

Me too..... lol

As others have said, I think most would find it reasonable that you would be in fear of your life. Therefore IMO you'd be justified in drawing your weapon. What happens next depends on what he does. If he turns and runs that is where I imagine some opinions would change. I say let him go (while still being ready), some may argue that if turns back he is still a threat. If he starts to draw...well....I don't think there is any doubt any more.

I "think" Dave meant to say that threatening deadly force "is" the same as using it in TN. Because there is no brandishing law in here.

[Guest 270win]

Someone close by, weapon in hand/visible, AND saying "Give me your wallet/money" is what is called robbery. The person is threatening you with his weapon in order to gain access of your property. It is a crime of violence. This is not theft. You may use any method to stop such attack up to deadly force. The thing you have to realize is this person has already picked you out and has an edge on you and may have his weapon closer at hand than you have yours and is probably willing. That is a you or him situation.

To me, this is why it is important to practice drawing and firing your handgun one handed. I highly doubt in such a bad situation you are going to have the time to stand there, get a two handed grip, and aim and wait on someone to stop his crime because it can turn out really bad for you to take such time.

[JAB]

Of course the jackhole attempted robber and his lawyer might later come out with, "I wasn't threatenening nobody. I was jus' gonna ask him if he wanted to buy that gun so I could get gas money to go and visit my sick momma in the hospital."

As concerned as I would be with what might happen later, at that exact moment I would be more worried about what was happening right then or what was about to happen - and if some lowlife is flashing a gun at me then what he is planning to be about to happen isn't going to be good. To me, flashing a gun in that manner is a threat with a deadly weapon, i.e. a threat of death or serious, bodily injury.

[I_Like_Pie]

Of course the jackhole attempted robber and his lawyer might later come out with, "I wasn't threatenening nobody. I was jus' gonna ask him if he wanted to buy that gun so I could get gas money to go and visit my sick momma in the hospital."

As concerned as I would be with what might happen later, at that exact moment I would be more worried about what was happening right then or what was about to happen - and if some lowlife is flashing a gun at me then what he is planning to be about to happen isn't going to be good. To me, flashing a gun in that manner is a threat with a deadly weapon, i.e. a threat of death or serious, bodily injury.

Yup...sad thing is that if he survived then the defender would be slapped with a civil lawsuit. Rather be sued than dead, but that is exactly what would happen.

[Oh Shoot]

Yup...sad thing is that if he survived then the defender would be slapped with a civil lawsuit. Rather be sued than dead, but that is exactly what would happen.

Dead perp doesn't preclude lawsuit -- surviving family sue too, sometimes successfully.

- OS

[dunndw]

BANG BANG....BANG

Scan for additional threats

call 911

[DaveTN]

I "think" Dave meant to say that threatening deadly force "is" the same as using it in TN. Because there is no brandishing law in here.

No…. what I meant is that pulling a weapon does not require you be justified in using deadly force. And given the choice I would never wait until deadly force is justified. If you threaten someone with a gun and you are not justified; its aggravated assault (a felony) and not brandishing (usually a misdemeanor).

At the moment he lifts his shirt to show me a weapon; I’m justified in drawing a weapon even though I’m not justified in killing him.

The level of justifiable force is not on or off. You escalate and deescalate with the situation. If you cannot do that you may very well die or go to prison.

[Fallguy]

No…. what I meant is that pulling a weapon does not require you be justified in using deadly force. And given the choice I would never wait until deadly force is justified. If you threaten someone with a gun and you are not justified; its aggravated assault (a felony) and not brandishing (usually a misdemeanor).

At the moment he lifts his shirt to show me a weapon; I’m justified in drawing a weapon even though I’m not justified in killing him.

The level of justifiable force is not on or off. You escalate and deescalate with the situation. If you cannot do that you may very well die or go to prison.

Ok...I got ya I think. Although I thought pulling a weapon in general did require you to be justified in using deadly force. At least if you drew it in front of them.

[DaveTN]

Ok...I got ya I think. Although I thought pulling a weapon in general did require you to be justified in using deadly force. At least if you drew it in front of them.

Not in any law that I’m aware of. If I walk out in the mall parking lot and see a guy breaking into my car. I can draw down on him and order him to the ground; but I’m not justified in shooting him. If he runs away there isn’t much I can do.

If you pull your gun and the responding Officer/DA doesn’t think you were justified you would probably be charged with Aggravated Assault.

However… I didn’t work under Tennessee law; so I can’t be positively sure.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

Not in any law that I’m aware of. If I walk out in the mall parking lot and see a guy breaking into my car. I can draw down on him and order him to the ground; but I’m not justified in shooting him. If he runs away there isn’t much I can do.

If you pull your gun and the responding Officer/DA doesn’t think you were justified you would probably be charged with Aggravated Assault.

However… I didn’t work under Tennessee law; so I can’t be positively sure.

Lets say you draw your gun on the dude breaking into your car & he happens to have a gun & draws it & points it at you. Now you are in fear for your life & you have to shoot him. I'm guessing that some prosecutor on a mission could say that if you wouldnt have started using a disparate amount of force in the first place (using a gun to stop a property crime) then the situation wouldnt have escalated to you having to shoot the guy.

What do you think?

[DaveTN]

Lets say you draw your gun on the dude breaking into your car & he happens to have a gun & draws it & points it at you. Now you are in fear for your life & you have to shoot him. I'm guessing that some prosecutor on a mission could say that if you wouldnt have started using a disparate amount of force in the first place (using a gun to stop a property crime) then the situation wouldnt have escalated to you having to shoot the guy.

What do you think?

You can play “What if” using the “bad” Prosecutor all day long, and in any case.

If I see a gun in the guy’s hand or him going for a gun; I’m shooting him.

You are asking us to believe that there is a Prosecutor out there that would charge me for shooting an auto burglar that was armed with a gun and drew down on me.... If you believe that…. Don’t carry a gun.

There is no absolute protection for you in a shooting. There is also always the possibility that your shoot is right as rain; only to find out you just shot an innocent bystander. Carrying a gun and making decisions about the use of deadly force is a heavy burden.

I also don’t have a duty to retreat; even in a property crime.

[robbiev]

News story would of been, "Man shot in walmart parking lot after brandishing a gun & attempting robbery on a armed citizen"

Oh, come on. We know the newspaper story would be, "Crazed permit holder shoots armed citizen who never even drew his gun."

[knoxrocks222]

He better hope my wife isnt all hopped up on starbucks cause she will blow his ass away before i could even get my hand on my G23........she shows no mercy

[Fallguy]

Not in any law that I’m aware of. If I walk out in the mall parking lot and see a guy breaking into my car. I can draw down on him and order him to the ground; but I’m not justified in shooting him. If he runs away there isn’t much I can do.

If you pull your gun and the responding Officer/DA doesn’t think you were justified you would probably be charged with Aggravated Assault.

However… I didn’t work under Tennessee law; so I can’t be positively sure.

Not the way I read the law....

39-11-611((2) Notwithstanding § 39-17-1322, a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where the person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury, if:

(A) The person has a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury;

( The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury is real, or honestly believed to be real at the time; and

© The belief of danger is founded upon reasonable grounds.

The way I read it you can't threaten or use deadly force unless the above 3 things are met. I'm not sure someone breaking into your car qualifies, but I'm pretty sure your pointing a weapon at them qualifies as Aggravated Assault.

39-11-614 says you can't use deadly force to protect property unless it would fall under self-defense (see above)

Even if you were trying a citizens arrest, 39-11-621 also says you can't use deadly force except under self-defense.



[Guest pfries]

Not in any law that I’m aware of. If I walk out in the mall parking lot and see a guy breaking into my car. I can draw down on him and order him to the ground; but I’m not justified in shooting him. If he runs away there isn’t much I can do.

If you pull your gun and the responding Officer/DA doesn’t think you were justified you would probably be charged with Aggravated Assault.

However… I didn’t work under Tennessee law; so I can’t be positively sure.

Not the way I read the law....

39-11-611((2) Notwithstanding § 39-17-1322, a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where the person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury, if:

(A) The person has a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury;

( The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury is real, or honestly believed to be real at the time; and

© The belief of danger is founded upon reasonable grounds.

The way I read it you can't threaten or use deadly force unless the above 3 things are met. I'm not sure someone breaking into your car qualifies, but I'm pretty sure your pointing a weapon at them qualifies as Aggravated Assault.

39-11-614 says you can't use deadly force to protect property unless it would fall under self-defense (see above)

Even if you were trying a citizens arrest, 39-11-621 also says you can't use deadly force except under self-defense.



So how does this weigh in then

38-2-102. Resistance by party about to be injured.

Resistance sufficient to prevent the offense may be made by the party about to be injured to prevent an:

(1) Offense against the party's person; or

(2) Illegal attempt by force to take or injure property in the party's lawful possession.

39-11-614 " Unless a person is justified in using deadly force as otherwise provided by law"

it does not specificaly exclude the threat of deadly force it states

"A person in lawful possession of real or personal property is justified in threatening or using force against another, when and to the degree it is reasonably believed the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property."

Edited August 13, 2011 by pfries
further reading

[DaveTN]

Not the way I read the law....

I disagree, but before we start impressing everyone by swapping 39 dash whatever’s…

What are you going to charge me with? Aggravated Assault?

[Guest mrl4ng]

I think you would be legally justified to draw.

That being said. Is the cash in your wallet really worth possibly escalating the situation to deadly levels? I dont have my carry permit (yet) but even if I WAS carrying in that situation, theres no way in hell i would bet my life against some scumbag's in an OK corral-esque quickdraw competition. At that range, unless you come out shooting, I would imagine that there would be a very good chance both parties would end up getting shot. Additionally, you dont know if this guy is alone...I would imagine in most situations like this, there is a getaway driver involved.

Though most likely legal, Im not sure it would be prudent to draw in that situation. To me its always a mental risk/reward assessment. Call me a wuss, but id try to get a good mental picture of his face, throw him my money, and alert the police as soon as I could access a phone (assuming he took that too). Walmarts parking lots are chock-full of cameras. Chances are, they'd get him pretty quickly.

Am I Wrong?

[DaveTN]

Am I Wrong?

No, but I predict you are getting ready to hear from a bunch of people that would have you believe they would rather die than give up their wallet. That or you just aren’t properly trained on how to take out a man that is pointing a gun at you.

[Guest pfries]

Am I Wrong?

I agree with DaveTN in that you are not wrong to think or feel that way,

it is a matter of "To each his own".

Many will claim what "they would do", personal experience has shown me that many you think would act don't and many you have reservations about shine when it matters.

My two cents try to be as mentaly prepared as you can and train, train,train so if the time comes when you cannot just get a look and report it you are as ready as you can be.

[robbiev]

So how does this weigh in then

38-2-102. Resistance by party about to be injured.

Resistance sufficient to prevent the offense may be made by the party about to be injured to prevent an:

(1) Offense against the party's person; or

(2) Illegal attempt by force to take or injure property in the party's lawful possession.

39-11-614 " Unless a person is justified in using deadly force as otherwise provided by law"

it does not specificaly exclude the threat of deadly force it states

"A person in lawful possession of real or personal property is justified in threatening or using force against another, when and to the degree it is reasonably believed the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property."

I'm not sure, but I think "force" and "deadly force" are defined as two distinctly different things in TN law. There is another section that makes a statement something like, "...is authorized to use force, but not deadly force..."

At the moment, I don't have time to look it up, but I'll find it later.

[QuietDan]

It's a darn good thing stuff like this is being discussed, AND being backed up with chapter and verse. It's like table-top training.